082 - Kids, Camping and Slowing Down with Emily Thomas
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Show Notes:
Every year we go camping, and we go camping with another family, the Thomas family. We have been for eight years. In fact, just this past weekend, we went camping with our dear friends. It was crazy and fun and once again full of new memories in a slower pace. John and Emily Thomas have been our friends for well over a decade long before kids and even still with kids.
Today, I brought Emily on to have a conversation about camping, kids, and slowing down. You might know Emily because she is the Chief of Staff at Cultivate What Matters, and a beautiful writer and blogger over at emformarvelous.com, one of the very few blogs that I adore and read. You're going to love Emily. She has a depth and a graciousness that is unmatched, and I love her. It's why she's been my friend for so long. So, I'm so excited to share our conversation today.
Click play above to listen in, or read through our conversation below!
Nancy: Emily Thomas, I'm so excited that you are on the Work and Play Podcast. Welcome.
Emily: Hello. Thank you for having me. I am so excited and honored. I am a super fan of not only Nancy Ray but the Work and Play Podcast. I have listened to every episode, so this is a joy.
Nancy: Stop! You have not listened to every episode.
Emily: I absolutely have, absolutely.
Nancy: Oh, my word. I really did not know that until this very moment. So, I'm very flattered. Thank you. That's very, very kind.
Emily: Of course.
Nancy: Well, for anyone listening, Emily and I are dear friends. I'll let her tell a little bit about herself, but that just I feel like took our friendship to another level. Thank you for your support. The fact that you listen to every single episode. You're very, very kind. So, tell us a little bit about Emily Thomas, who you are, and your family and your work. You can even go into the history of our relationship a little if you would like.
Emily: Sure. Well, I'm married to my high school sweetheart for eight years. We have two kids, June who is four and Shep who is two. John and I are both Enneagram Fives which will probably become obvious in this conversation. Some listeners may know me from my job at Cultivate What Matters, where I've worked for over a decade. In the evenings and the weekends, I write a blog called Em For Marvelous, which I've also been writing for over a decade. I really love personal finance, reading, my faith, hiking, traveling, board games.
Basically, I'm sure no listener can imagine why we are friends, Nancy.
Nancy: Nothing in common, nothing at all.
Emily: Okay. On that note, the short version of our story is that we met again more than a decade ago when I worked at Southern Weddings magazine, and you were wedding photographer. I read on your blog about how much you loved playing Settlers of Catan and reached out to see if you wanted to get together to play which is very uncharacteristic for me, but we did. It was a memorable evening not only because I could just tell right away that it was going to be a next level friendship, but also because Winston the puppy peed on the floor right in front of us and chaos ensued. So, very memorable all around.
Nancy: I remember that so well. Also, yeah, Winston was in his like crazy puppy days where he was larger than life but still a puppy, getting potty trained, peeing on everything. You were mortified. That just takes me right back to that moment when... I mean, I'm sure, but we were mortified. And then I think we were even more mortified at how much we flipped out about it right after these brand-new friends are in our home. We're playing a board game and Will and I just lost it. We're like, "Winston! What are you doing?" We just lost it.
We thought he was good. We thought he was potty trained until right then, and then precious John and Emily are just sitting there so politely as we're running around like crazy. Yeah, that was the fateful beginning of our friendship, which I love. I'm glad you stuck around, because we really could have scared you away after that.
Emily: Oh my gosh, too good.
Nancy: I know. So, fun. Yeah, I have so many memories. I think it's so sweet. Just to think that we've been friends for so long, and that we have been friends and have been camping together for many, many years even before you had kids. So, many memories of us playing board games and restaurants or at each other's houses or going on hikes pre-kids. Now, the name of the game is doing everything with our kids. The whole episode is going to be talking about camping with our kids. So, lots has changed, but I'm so glad that you went there, and you shared that story. Thank you.
Emily: You're so welcome.
Nancy: So, I think we've talked about this a little bit in our mini camping adventures, but tell me why camping? For you and John, why have you chosen to camp so much and to camp with us, honestly? But really, why is it important to you guys? Did you grow up camping? Give me a little bit of info on you and on John, and how you guys got to the point where you love camping so much.
Emily: Yeah. So, many things, so many reasons. I did not grow up camping. It's still kind of funny to me that it's such an important part of my life now, because in some ways, it feels a little out of character. But the reasons that I love it are many. First, I would say that camping in our lives is the pinnacle of the slow pace of life I aim for and slow parenting as well. Last year on our camping trip, I just remember the kids literally digging with plastic spoons in the gravel of our campsite for over an hour and having the best time. That just, to me, exemplifies like all of the goodness that there is in learning to love being outside and being happy with simple things and growing their attention spans and all that.
The change of pace and being taken out of my normal surroundings and routines has also been a beautiful opportunity over the years to see different sides of my kids' personalities and new abilities that they have and are growing in them.
As a mama, I just really treasure that opportunity. And then the last thing I would say is that traveling with another couple or family is just this rare opportunity to grow in friendship. Unless you live next door to each other, and especially in this season that we're in with little kids where it can be harder to get together, or when you do, you're constantly refereeing, the hours around the campfire or on a hike to talk are just priceless. So, yeah, that's some of the reasons I love it.
Nancy: I always joke with Will, I'm like, "I want an adult sleep over." That sounds bad. Actually, we have talked about this, I'm like, "I want friends to come over to our house and sleep over. I want to go to their house and sleep over just like we did in high school." Because it's this other level of interacting where you get to see them in their pajamas, where you see them first thing in the morning, where you see them brushing their teeth. It's like, "Okay. Oh, this is how you do life." I totally agree.
I think it's such a gift, because one thing that Will and I've talked about as we're driving away from the camp site is how we appreciate and admire your and John's parenting and how it's different than ours and how we can learn from that. You can't really grasp how someone parents their child or how they interact unless you're kind of with them overnight. I mean, you can, but not to the level that we do even when we share like an entire weekend together. So, I totally agree that that is one of the most beautiful aspects of camping. We learn from you all on another level, because it just goes deeper, and we see these nuances of interaction and conversations that we just wouldn't have an opportunity to see otherwise, so. Yeah.
Emily: I completely agree. This is one of the same reasons why I don't go on them very often, but when I do, I love going on double dates because the same thing. Just seeing and learning from that interaction between another family or another couple, I feel like that has been huge in my growth as a person and a mama and a wife and all that. So, yes, I love that reason as well.
Nancy: Yeah. I also love that you talked about them scooping up the rocks. What did they call it? Didn't they say it was rock soup or something?
Emily: Probably yes.
Nancy: I don't know, but it was so sweet, because you were on kid duty when we were cleaning up. Usually, what happens is each of us rotate when like setting up or cleaning up the campsite, because there's a whole ordeal. One person has kid duty and one person supervises all the kids while the other three adults are making hay. I just remember coming back after packing up our campsite, and you just had the biggest smile on your face. The kids literally were just all sitting there covered in dirt and rocks and just so content. It was great. It was just sweet. Yeah. So, how did we end up camping buddies? How did this start?
Emily: Yeah. Well, for us, John and I, camping and hiking and backpacking started pretty soon after we moved to North Carolina, mostly because it was a very good intersection of being pretty poor at the time and also loving adventure. So, we kind of started on, like I said, backpacking and just traveling as light as we could and things like that. I don't really remember all the details, but as we just grew in friendship, I'm sure we talked about that and thought it sounded like a fun thing to try. I doubt that we could have predicted that we'd be eight years strong at this point. So, yeah, that's what I remember. You remember anything else?
Nancy: No, I'm laughing because I agree. I'm like, "I don't think this was super intentional." We never signed up, and we're like, "Okay, how do you guys feel about going together every single year?" I think we would have been like, "I don't know about that" in the beginning, but it's just naturally evolved over the years. I'm so thankful, because now, every year, we're like, "Alright, we got to talk about it. We got to get this on the calendar."
Emily: Got to get it on the calendar.
Nancy: We're now planning around babies and pregnancies and due dates in the last few years and making sure that we can still get our annual camping trip every year, but yeah, I agree. Similarly, Will and I just fell in love with hiking and rock hopping over the creeks in Boone when we were newly married and really got out to do a lot of hiking and exploring, because the mountains of North Carolina are just so beautiful. North Carolina is just the place to do it all. It's gorgeous. Yeah. I mean, we were on a really tight budget.
So, finding recreational things that don't cost a lot of money, camping falls totally into that category. But we registered for all this camping gear when we got married, but I don't think we used it once until we went camping with you guys, which is funny. But yeah, I remember we were most excited. We got this double sleeping bag. It was like, where we both sleep in the same sleeping bag. I think he gave that to me maybe when we were engaged for Christmas. That's it. Yeah, he gave me for Christmas. We're engaged. Of course, we're like, "Oh, this sounds so fun. We could sleep together in the same sleeping bag." Now we're like, "That was a very practical decision, because we keep each other very warm."
Emily: Yes, absolutely.
Nancy: We still use that double sleeping bag, but we never used it until we went camping with you guys. Anyway, it just kind of unfolded and happened. I'm so thankful that it did. So, let's jump into tips for camping with kids, because let's be real, it's a whole other ballgame.
Emily: It is.
Nancy: We just up-leveled our camping game when we brought our kids with us. So, yeah, going to the practical side, John is always in charge of choosing the campsite location. I feel like you and John maybe decide kind of where sounds like a good place to target for camping, and then John is like the campsite guy. So, since we've had kids, what does he look for in a campsite because we have kids?
Emily: Perfect. Yes. So, I brought in, like you said, the expert here and asked him about how he does this because he kind of just takes it and runs with it. He definitely earns his Enneagram Five badge here, like I said. So, this is a little nitty gritty, but if you're looking for a campsite here are his best tips, so.
He says, consider the drive to get there. So, right now, we usually shoot for two to three hours max with how old our kids are. On the flip side, I personally don't like camping too close to home, because it feels pretty anticlimactic to have spent the whole day packing and then drive 20 minutes away. I'd honestly rather just sleep in my own bed at that point. So, two to three hours is usually the sweet spot for us.
When you are choosing sites within the park, they won't be spaced perfectly evenly, right? So, we look for ones that have a bit of a bigger buffer between other sites, so that your kids are less likely to be woken up by the noise of others or bother other people with their noise. But if you're camping with another family like we do, we look for two adjacent sites that are close together and on the same side of the road, so the kids can easily walk back and forth between them. Usually, there's a path or something. That is a good note that you will have to reserve two separate campsites, because they're usually only sized to fit one tent each, so keep that in mind. And then shady sites or parks are best to help with naps and just to keep kids out of the sun when you can and keep everyone happy.
The great thing about that is that many park websites will have photos of the individual campsites, so you can check to see what the cover is and all that. And then the last tip is you want to be reasonably close to the bathroom and the water spigot and things like that, because you'll probably be making frequent trips but not so close that you're bothered by the noise. So, we usually look for like three to four sites away depending on the size of the park. John also mentioned that you can often Google for photos or the bathroom just to make sure it's not super gross, which thanks to his diligence, we have never had a super gross bathroom.
Nancy: Very true. Thanks to John.
Emily: So, that is great fun. I just will say we are spoiled by the North Carolina State Parks' website. It's really great. I don't know how it compares to other states. But if you're just starting out and not sure where to start, I would definitely try your state parks' website first. Hopefully, that will be a great resource.
Nancy: That's amazing. Even as you're talking about this, I'm like, "John Thomas, you are amazing. Thank you for having the forethought. If I was in charge, it would be a disaster," because I'm like, "That looks great." And then we would have all these obstacles when we get there. I haven't even thought about the fact that yeah, choosing two campsites on the same side of the road is so helpful and important, so that the kids don't have to go into the road to see each other.
There's so many memories of just June and Milly trying to find each other with Lyndon tagging along through the woods. They're like little paths that they've made between our camp sites. Yeah, it's just fun to think about. Also, on that note, there is one year, we had a pretty sunny campsite. You guys had the forethought to bring a tent. I mean, obviously, you're bringing a tent. You're camping. Yeah, this pop-up extra shaded 10-by-10 kind of tent. I mean, how many comments that we make, like "If we didn't have this thing..."
Emily: Yeah, that was a game changer.
Nancy: That was a game changer, because we had kids with us. They're little. Just to be able to eat in the shade because it was warm and it was sunny, and we didn't have to stay in our tents the whole time. It was really nice. So, good thinking about the shade and the tents and the bathroom. Also, the memories flooded my mind when I got up to pee several times in the middle of the night when I was pregnant. So, if you have someone with you when you're camping and they're pregnant, getting a bathroom that's nice and close to your tent is always a win.
Emily: Yes, absolutely.
Nancy: So, there's tiny kid potties that I may or may not have used in the middle of the night. I debated sharing that on this podcast, but you know what?
Emily: You went there, it's good.
Nancy: I went there, keeping it real. This is camping with kids. So, I figured whatever is helpful, because I was pregnant.
Emily: Absolutely.
Nancy: There's little kids, and there's a little kid potty right there where it can walk like hundred feet in the middle of the night. I want to do that anyway. Okay, let's get back on to our questions now.
Emily: Great.
Nancy: Okay, so let's talk about how camping changed for us before we had kids and then after kids. What are some of your favorite memories pre-kids, and how have things changed since then?
Emily: Okay, well, I would say the nice thing about camping is that we're still essentially enjoying the same activity we did before kids. Now, we're being in nature, we're hiking, we're enjoying each other's company, but the logistics just became a much heavier lift. So, more stuff to bring, bigger tents. Like I mentioned, we've also made kind of concessions around how far we're willing to drive, choosing easier hikes, things like that.
This sounds like small, but one of the biggest differences I feel like is the vigilance around the campfire. It's kind of like being around a swimming pool with little kids. You just have to be so careful and vigilant with the ages our kids are. So, that's kind of constantly on my mind when they're awake, which is not something that I thought of really pre-kids. So, those are some of the differences, I would say.
Nancy: Just to make a note of the campfire too, we love a morning campfire. So, it is something that we have to watch all the time. So, I think it's helpful to have one person that's like, "Okay, you are maintaining the safety of the campfire." There's always an adult sitting there talking to the kids and making sure that they're safe. I feel like our kids are really good listeners, so they learn, but they're also very young. So, it is really important and good to have an adult supervising the situation all the time.
Emily: Well, we've camped with really little kids and they just can be unsteady on their feet or not old enough to understand and things. So, yes, the ages of Milly and June at this point, they get it, they understand. But yeah, when you have a 9-month-old or an 18-month-old, it's a whole different ballgame.
Nancy: Definitely. So, what about some favorite memories before kids?
Emily: Okay, so, obviously, there's the hikes and all of that and just really fun places that we've been. But this question made me think about how every year we'd spend a big chunk of time around the campfire, talking about future kids and our plans for having kids and just where we each were in that journey. Those conversations, again, you just don't have always the time or space for them in normal life. Just to see how we kind of helped each other along the way to get to where we are now enjoying the kids together is just very sweet. Yeah, those are some of my favorite memories.
Nancy: I totally agree. When I thought about asking you this question, I was like, "I wonder what she's going to say." But that's exactly where my mind went too, because I think a lot of our conversations, we were able to kind of bare our emotions and feelings about it a little bit with another couple who we felt safe with, who was in a very similar stage of life, and then hear your perspective on it. There were a few conversations that we had in different years, different campfire conversations in the evening, different years about children or about our family or about what we want to be remembered for.
John said something one time that has just always stuck with me about having children is one of the greatest demonstrations of showing that you have hope for this world. I still remember that. I'm probably not saying it exactly like he said it, but that just stayed with me. Just the act of having kids shows that you have hope for the future of this world. Those things really shape us, and we get to shape each other in those conversations.
Like you said, every night around the campfire, it's not scripted. You just get to be with each other and whatever comes out comes out. But I also love when we took you guys to the giant waterfall in Boone, it was like the most treacherous hike ever. We were like, "We've got to do this before we have kids, because we're not coming back." So being able to do things a little bit more risky is fun too.
Emily: Yeah. And then Will jumped to off the top of the waterfall and it was insane. The rest of us were like, "Oh my gosh, I hope you survive," and he did. So, that's good.
Nancy: Thankfully, I had seen him do it several times before. I always patiently wait for him at the bottom, because I am not going to be that person. But yeah, it's like a 30-foot waterfall or something.
Emily: It's big, yeah.
Nancy: So great. Okay. So, let's get practical. What would you say are the things you have to bring with you, items you need to bring with you when you go camping with kids?
Emily: Okay, yes. So, number one, I would say is a USB white noise machine and powerbank. So, I love the idea of listening to nature sounds when I fall asleep. Some people may feel this is controversial, but at the ages of our kids, this is the number one thing that has helped us have a really good nights of sleep. It muffles other noise, it's familiar. It's what they're what they're used to at home. So, that is my number one thing, and then just powerbank. Obviously, you're in nature. So, that helps you keep the juice for the second night.
And then on the note of sleeping, we bring our Pack 'n Play for Shep right now. So, we have the Guava Lotus, which is very compact and easy to fit in a tent. Any Pack 'n Play probably would work, but that one is just nice and small. So, that's great. It's great because he's used to sleeping in it when we travel wherever. Sleep was probably my biggest worry before we started any of this. Just "Would they not go to bed? Would they scream and wake up everyone else?", and all of that. So, this was helpful because they didn't even really register that they were in an unfamiliar situation between the noise and the familiar bed. So, that was surprisingly smooth back when June was our first baby.
So, aside from that, a clip-on highchair to put on the picnic table is very helpful, because those picnic tables are just not the right dimensions for little ones. That helps with mealtimes. And then Natives are great shoes. Since if you're near water, that's great. And then they can also wear them in the bathhouse or shower, anything like that. For packing, we really love packing everything in big clear plastic tubs like a Rubbermaid or something like that, food, clothing, everything. In that way, you can see and access everything really easily when it's in your car.
For parents, I have to note that in recent years, I said we started out backpacking, where you want to be as light as possible. But in recent years, I've really leaned into the car camping life and have just maxed out on the comfy bedding, which makes a huge difference in my own sleep quality. So, basically now we have like a fluffy nest in our tents. I bring my pillow and a queen mattress inflatable and a comforter and just do it up. So, recommend that.
And then last thing I would say is that our two families have a master camping packing list that we reuse year after year. So, we're not reinventing the wheel, because it definitely can be overwhelming to pack and make sure you have everything you need but not too much. We put on Google Docs, so we can both check things off as we're getting ready in the days before. We don't bring duplicates of things. So, that has been very helpful for us as well.
Nancy: I will be sure to leave a link to our master document, our master packing list for camping in the show notes. So, anybody who wants to use it, you can use it. You can make one of your own, super helpful as well. So, I'll leave the link in the show notes there. I 100% agree. I also feel like I learned something from you, because I really love the idea of doing the white noise machine, the USB with the little power pack. I mean, you can do it anyway, right? It's fine. But the AA batteries inside the white noise machine have totally pooped out on me in the middle of the night when we're camping. I'm like "No!", because that is like one of the most important things is trying to preserve your sleep while camping. Knowing you'll get less of it, but just trying to get what you can is really good.
I'm trying to think if there's anything else that I would add to this list, but honestly, I think you covered... The things that my mind went to were the highchair, the clip-on highchair for sure, white noise machines. And then I also when I had a little baby—I mean Beaufort was very little could crawl, I think—I had that little pop up thing that I could just set them in. It was almost like a fold out chair, like a camping chair. But instead when you folded it out, it was like this table, and then the little hole where you could just sit him down with his two legs going through. That was great, because we just throw toys and snacks and stuff on them. So, I can link to that too, but yeah, I agree. You covered the basics, so great. Okay, anything that we should leave behind? Is there anything you just don't need anymore?
Emily: Yeah. So, this might sound basic, but I would say electronics and tablets for kind of obvious reasons. Even if that feels scary, I think you will be pleasantly surprised by your kids and how they just adjust to life outside for the weekend and just in support of giving them that chance.
I would also say most toys beyond their sleeping stuffed animals and maybe some things to facilitate play like little plastic animals or something like that, but again, they're out in the beautiful world. Probably they have friends with them hopefully. They will find plenty of things to play with around the campsite without bringing a bunch of other stuff. And then finally, again, pretty obvious but fancy clothes. You want them to just be really comfortable to dig in the dirt and enjoy themselves. So, you can leave those at home for the weekend.
Nancy: What about their schedules? How does this whole feeling of naptime schedule and kind of leaving that behind or their bedtimes? What should your attitude be with their meals, their snacks, their naps, everything and their schedule that you've worked so hard to achieve at home?
Emily: Well, I definitely want to hear from you on this one too, but I will start off by saying that, in general, we are not like super militant about schedules. So, it wasn't like the biggest concern for us, but what I was most concerned about was the naps, just knowing that June would have a total meltdown if she didn't get any rest during the day when she was younger. So, the best workaround we found was to schedule our hike a drive away like on purpose, maybe even an hour away. Time our travel with when she wants to nap, because napping in a tent is just hard. It's bright, it can be hot. So, giving her that chance to nap in the car even if it was shorter than she would normally nap. It's still got that kind of like shot of energy and hedged off the real scaries. So, that was really helpful for us.
And then just hopefully, to the comfort to parents, your kid may not get as much sleep as they're used to where you're used to, but I think the distraction of the fresh air and friends and just something totally new and novel can really do wonders for their behavior and mood. Of course, we've had those moments that are a little hairy, but in general, I'm always just wowed by them and how well they adapt. And then just the last thing around meals. It's helpful to have, and this is pretty obvious, but a plan for them. So, you can keep things rolling since cooking over a fire and outdoors can take longer than at home maybe. So, we often will bring snack. Our kids go nuts for veggies and dip to keep them happy before meal. So, that would be a tip as well.
Nancy: Yeah, I totally agree. I would say we're probably more of a schedule family. I have really loved getting my kids on a schedule, sticking to that schedule, getting them down for their naps every day, bedtimes. We're pretty... I wouldn't say strict about it. We were happy to veer from that if an event or life circumstance caused us away from it. But for the most part, I really loved schedule. So, I do think it was pretty stressful for me at first going camping and thinking about just like totally ruining the schedule I've worked so hard for. The first thing I want to say is that it does not ruin it. It's just two or three days of their life. They're going to be so exhausted when you get home. I promise they'll go right back to the schedule.
So, keeping the perspective of you're actually planning this trip to make memories with your children. Don't plan so much that they'll sleep. I mean, yes, their sleep is important and good, but don't plan so much around their sleep that you miss the memories of it. I was stressed out a little bit when we would go on a hike or do something right in the middle there naptime. My kids taught me, "Mom, don't stress out." I mean, they were happiest could be and then they would fall asleep on the hike, literally on the backpack. We have the most hilarious pictures of Milly and June totally asleep on their dad's. Bless John and Will and their necks, because they had to carry them for literally... They were sleeping for like an hour on them. They're just so tired. They'll sleep when they need to.
I agree. Naps inside those tents are just a no-go, especially when it's warm. It's just so hot and muggy. It's shady, which is nice, but they're so excited to be there. It's like a fight just to try to get them to go to sleep in their tent. Just go out and have adventures. Let them sleep when they sleep. And then I will say on the first night, just expect for it to be crazy. They're so excited. They're so wired. We've tried to get them to bed at a decent hour on the first night. What do they do? They laugh and giggle and play another hour in the tent. We're just sitting around the campfire saying, "Go to sleep, go to sleep." That is now predictable for us, because we're like, "Okay, they're just excited." But then the subsequent nights get a little bit easier just because they're worn out.
So, I would say to the mama who loves the schedule, these are the times where you're meant to go off schedule. Schedule serves you and your life. You don't serve it. So, this is the time for you to let loose a little. Let the memories be made and have fun. Don't worry about it. Also, I do think this is where it's helpful to go camping with another family, because Milly's always in our tent. I say Milly a lot. Obviously, I'm also including Lyndon and Beaufort. They're just so little. Milly and June have been camping with us the longest as our kids. But they're entertained by one another. So, I think if we were just camping alone, there might be more meltdowns.
Emily: Absolutely.
Nancy: There might be more whining. There might be more like, "Oh, Mom, why are we here?" But when you're with somebody else and you're with another family and some other friends, it's all of a sudden really fun and an adventure, because a buddy is there with you. So, that's another vote in the camping with friends.
Emily: Yeah, we see that on hikes and things. If one of them is walking, then the other one's more likely to walk and things like that. So, yeah, they can be great encouragement for each other. That, like what you said, Nancy, was kind of the number one thing that John said. He was like, "Just tell them that they have to go for two nights. They can't go for one night, because the first night is always going to be bad probably or at least prepare yourself for it to be. And then the second night, it's so much smoother." So, definitely go for the two nights.
Nancy: Definitely, totally agree. Okay, so what are some of your most fun memories that we have made since bringing kids with us camping?
Emily: Well, we've had some amazing hikes and just beautiful places that we've been to, but one of the first things that pops to mind... Again, this is from last year, but I just remember the girls and the two of us having our dance recitals in the middle of the road last year, which it was much safer than it sounds. No one was driving down the road, but it was just so fun. Again, one of those just random unplanned moments that again, in normal life, like you might have just breezed right past, but we had nowhere to be, nothing to do. So, we were just out there for an hour or whatever and taking turns dancing in the middle of the road for each other. Those are very sweet.
Nancy: I love that one so much. I really can't. I'm just picturing it in my head, all in their matching jammies. They were so proud, so cute. Their little dance moves were just hilarious. And then of course, you and I took turns. That was great. It was so fun.
Emily: You could just tell, they were just beaming. We're both mamas that... We give our kids lots of attention and we do fun things, but it is still unique to have nothing around. There's no dishes. There's no phone. There's no nothing. They were just beaming to have this undivided special time with us. So, it just goes to show it is always the simplest things they just delight in.
Nancy: Totally agree. I have two memories that popped into my mind. One is also from last year. It was when we were all in the lake together. We were all just playing, and the kids had floaties on. The dads were throwing him up in the air. We were just laughing, and it felt so good, because it was so hot. We all got in the water. I mean, the whole family, right? We're all there together just taking turns and just laughing. Yeah, just making memories with all the kids is so fun. And then another one I thought of was I think it may have been maybe the first or second time that we went camping with kids, because June and Milly were still really little. But we went to this one hike that you and John found.
Emily: Yes, I know what you're talking about.
Nancy: It opened up after going an hour in the woods. It was so beautiful and cool, but then it opened up to this huge field of yellow flowers, just massive field. I put Milly right in the middle of it and took her picture and was like, "Oh, my goodness, this is just breathtaking." I've never seen anything like this. Usually, I think you said there's even cows roaming. I think we may have seen some in the distance, but it was just so breathtaking. I mean, Milly's too little to remember it, but I'm just so thankful that we're committed to getting our kids in nature to see things like this that they would never otherwise see. It was a moment for me more than anybody.
I felt like it was for my heart, but I'll just never forget just how breathtaking it was and to be out there. I should save this for the next question, but that was following one of the most stressful nights of my life, I think, as well. So, I'll just go and ask the question, then I'll tell that story in a second, but what is one of your most stressful memories of taking our kidsa?
Emily: Oh my gosh. Well, I think that you have better stressful memories than I do, honestly. I'll say that hike is so beautiful, and I'll give you the name of it. I'll ask John what it was, and we can put it in the show notes too. So, yeah, it's a really good one if people want to experience it for themselves.
Nancy: Yes, it was outside of Boone, North Carolina?
Emily: Yes. Yup. So, for me again, nothing huge comes to mind on the actual trip. But for me, the most stressful part is always the prep, the lead up to it. It just always takes longer than I think. In the past, I had tried to work a half day and then take off the second half and leave, but I have just learned that if at all possible, I need to take the full Friday off from work and spend the morning packing and prepping and just leaving myself more time that I think I need to get everything ready, which is so helpful and just gets me in a better headspace to enjoy the rest of the weekend.
But yes, it always takes longer than you think. If you have those negative memories of "Oh my gosh, it's so hard to go camping. Ugh, it's like such a pain," then you'll be less likely to want to do it. So, anything that you can do, whether it's using our master packing list or giving yourself a little more time I think will just make the whole experience more fun and pleasant.
Nancy: Yes, I've learned to start packing like four days in advance, sometimes a week in advance. It is a challenge, and it takes time. Our heart in this podcast episode is to be real and let you see the beautiful moments, but also to say it's hard work to get your whole family out the door, to meal plan, to get all the food, all the utensils, everything. It is hard work. It takes time. But if you give yourself that time and allow for that, it's not as stressful, because you have your list, you have the time, you know what it takes. So, once you get into the car, you're like, "Okay, I did that." I think it was more stressful in the beginning with kids, because we didn't realize how much extra time it would take to pack for these tiny humans as well. It is a lot more packing and thinking like it is for any trip with kids, right, so.
Emily: Yes. Well, and for me, just all of life basically, the key to life, but especially for camping is expectations, right? So if you can have your expectations adjusted, set the bar low, whether it's for the prep or for the first night of sleep or just for the experience in general, then you leave yourself the opportunity to just be delighted by it and to have it surpass your expectations. So, again, I think that's hopefully what we're doing in this episode is hopefully maybe helping listeners set realistic expectations and then prepare to have them be blown away, hopefully.
Nancy: Absolutely. Yeah. I think it was our first camping trip with Milly. This would be one of my more stressful memories was when... We talked about the first night of camp and sleep. ... she was nursing. So, at the time, I was still nursing her, and she just would not sleep. She wouldn't. It's funny, because we had her Pack 'n Play right next to our double blow up mattress and our double sleeping bag, which let me just pause and say, Will and I have been Boujee from day one with our experience. John and Emily were like, "We're sleeping in our own camping sleeping bags on the floor." Will and I are setting up our queen bed. We're like, "Yup, okay." Super Boujee about it all, but it was fine.
But yeah, I think that night, Milly, she wasn't used to sleeping same room with us. She had her room at the time. So, she just looked over. It was a really bright moon, so you could see everything. She was just like, "Mommy, daddy, camping. Wow." She was so excited. Anyway, I remember I got three hours of sleep that night in total and had to get up the next day. I just remember thinking, "How am I going to do this? How am I going to function?" This take energy and I'm exhausted and literally was up with her. I tried to nurse her to sleep probably like eight times that night.
Emily: Oh my gosh.
Nancy: She would hop right back up awake. Will is completely conked out the next day. He was totally unaware of everything that's happening. He sleeps so well. Yeah, but I remember the very next day when I was so exhausted is when we went on that beautiful hike. I remember so well being overwhelmed, probably sleep deprived too, but just to be on the verge of tears with just gratitude. I'm so glad we're doing this, because even though, it was a sacrifice of sleep and a little bit of sanity for that one night, the payoff is so huge.
Now, it's just one of my funniest memories to talk about when we took our baby camping, like, "Crazy, people. I didn't get any sleep, but it was just such a beautiful reward for doing that." I also remember last year, oh, camping with three kids. They were four and under. I just felt like a total hot mess the whole time. I'm pretty sure I was. That's okay, we were committed to doing it. I'm still looking back. I'm still so glad that we did it for the memories that we made, 100%. But there were some moments where I thought I was going to lose my mind. First of all, I will just lead you through this one afternoon of my most miserable day camping last year.
Emily: Sure.
Nancy: First, I rolled my ankle in the sand on the beach, walking back from the lake.
Emily: Oh my gosh.
Nancy: I limped the whole way back to the tent. I really thought I had done something to my ankle. Thankfully, the next day, it was fine, but I have sprained my ankle before and it's not fun. So, I'm like limping. It was really hurting me, like really bad. And then I think I had Beaufort and one of the kids, I had to take them to the shower. I was going to try to shower with Beaufort and maybe everyone a shower. Anyway, I walk in there. I'm so tired and my foot is hurting. This is so gross, but there's throw up everywhere in the bathroom.
Emily: Yes, that's right.
Nancy: It was not ours. I just had this freak out panic attack of like, "Oh my gosh, if someone has a stomach bug here and if one of my kids gets it, I'm going to send over the edge." I remember literally, I turned right back around with both kids. I walked all the way back to the tent. I said, "Will, you have to take these kids, I couldn't lose my mind." I just burst into tears. I had been nursing Beaufort for I think through the night and through the day. I was just so-
Emily: Well, he was being weird about nursing too, I remember, which was adding to the stress of it all.
Nancy: Yes, he was. I'd forgotten that. Yes, that's exactly right. He wasn't nursing, because he was so distracted. I was so nervous he wasn't getting the hydration he needed. That was so stressful for me too. So, it was just like the perfect storm one afternoon. I just melted down and was like, "Will, I need a minute. I need you to watch the kids." I just burst into tears, had a minute, and we got through it. The next morning, my foot wasn't hurting anymore. The bathroom was miraculously clean again even though I totally avoided that stall the rest of the time. It all worked out, but sometimes I think it is good to say if you are in a stressful moment, you need to just ask for some help and just sit yourself in timeout for a minute. Gather your feelings and your thoughts and know it's going to be okay, so.
Emily: Well, and the good thing is I told you hopefully, that'd probably will be the toughest year at least us with the basic fact of the ages of your kids at that time. It probably can't get much harder than that. So, it's all smooth sailing from here hopefully.
Nancy: Exactly. We are counting on that, Emily Thomas. You better believe we are counting on that, because Will and I said, we really do think last year was the most stressful year. We were kind of crazy to do it, but we still did it. Because Lyndon also was just so clumsy. She fell every two feet, it seems like. I mean, she was just learning to walk. I had a baby. I was nursing. Will was more stressed out about Lyndon than anything. She kept falling and falling and then argued, "Get away from me." It was just safety dad, on alert for everybody. He was stressed about her. I was stressed about Beaufort. It was just crazy. But with all of that said, are the memories worth it?
Emily: Yes, absolutely, seven times over so far. My plans for the next however long is camping with the Ray family every year. If you tell me any different, then I will be very upset, so.
Nancy: Thankfully. My plans are the same, so that's good that we got that sorted out live on this podcast recording. Yes, yeah, 100%. I do think it's so sweet that we've settled into this tradition, this annual tradition of sorts for us to go camping together, because we hold each other accountable.
Emily: Yeah.
Nancy: Right? I mean, if it was just our family, I think there'd be a pretty strong like, "Let's not do it this weekend, something's come up," right? And then it's pushed off, but there's the accountability there. But also, it's just such a joy and it's so fun. It's like one of the highlights of our year, every year. It's so fun. To the point that I am that committed, like taking three small kids. We're going to do this thing. When we're pregnant, we're going to go. When we have small kids, we're doing this, because the memories have absolutely been so worth it.
Emily: Oh, god. I'm just going to say so much to look forward to too, right? More challenging hikes, farther away campsites, cool things. There's this place in South Carolina that we've talked about where you canoe in and then camp on an island, which sounds so awesome, but not as much with a one year old. So, we will save that for the future. And then really far down, our big dream is we've talked about taking a giant family trip to Yosemite for our 15th camping anniversary, which I've been once before. It is just the most breathtakingly beautiful place. How cool to just experience that with dear friends and your kids with your friends and all that. So, I'm excited about that already.
Nancy: I am too. I was hoping you're going to mention that.
Emily: Of course.
Nancy: If you weren't, I was going to. Because I'm like I think that is when you start thinking about the spin of your life and the memories you want to make with your kids and the legacy you want to leave. It's like, you know what? If we start talking about these things now and dreaming about them now and budgeting for them now, we can make it happen. We can do that. Instead of just saying like, "It's some pie in the sky thing that'll never happen," no, I really think that we could do it.
And then to imagine our kids who have these memories growing up camping together. Being teenagers together at the campsite, that kind of blows my mind. We've also started dreaming about when we just all sit in chairs and say, "Okay. Kids, set up the tent. Okay. Kids, make our meals. Whose on our meal duty tonight?" Instead of us doing all the work, we're like, "Oh, man, we're going to train them up to know how to camp."
Emily: Totally.
Nancy: It's going to be great.
Emily: Obviously, right now, we're each sleeping in our own tents. But as the girls get older, I'm sure a Milly and June probably would want to camp together. So, bringing our old backpacking tent and letting them be together, just fun things like that that, yeah, I'm excited about.
Nancy: It's so fun. Me too. Oh, this is so fun. I'm getting really excited about our camping trip. Now, at the time of this recording, we haven't gone camping yet, but this is really close to the time that we're going camping. I'm super excited. But yeah, just thinking about all of the plans that we have together just makes me smile. So, I'm going to brush off that camping list and get ready. I'm getting all excited about it. It's going to be good.
Emily: Yes.
Nancy: Okay, so to close out our time together, you know that I have some questions for you that are a little bit more fun and lighthearted. But since you've listened to every single episode of the Work and Play Podcast, you know it's coming. So, why don't you share a book that you're loving?
Emily: Yeah, sure do. I've been thinking from day one how I maintain a healthy soul and a fulfilling life, so.
Nancy: Such a deep question.
Emily: Get ready, everyone. All right, a book I'm loving. Like you, I'm a big reader. So, it's hard to choose, but I'm going to go with Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson, which is about his experience as a lawyer working to right the injustices in our legal system for the poor and minorities. It was just a really moving and eye-opening and well written book, but what I really appreciated about it in this particular season that we're in of just a racial conversation in this country and hot takes on the internet, instant experts and viciousness and judgment in the comment section, it was just so refreshing and hopeful to get to sit at the feet of a true expert and read something in long form that just engaged my whole heart and mind instead of scrolling on the internet. So, I would highly, highly recommend it, so good.
Nancy: I really want to read it now. Have you seen the movie?
Emily: No, but it is on my list of goals for this month. So, I'm excited.
Nancy: It's so good. The movie is so good. I've heard that the book, of course, is better than the movie, because it always is, right? But yeah, you're going to enjoy the movie. It's really, really well done. So, now we just need to swap places. I'll read the book.
Emily: Perfect.
Nancy: You'll go watch the movie. Yes.
Emily: We can do it before camping and then discuss it.
Nancy: Oh, even better. Yes, let's do it. Okay, what is a product that you're loving?
Emily: Okay, I am choosing the Becca Under Eye Brightening Corrector, I think it's called. I'm already fairly minimum with makeup, but I have worn even less in this pandemic. This little like pot of magic has stood in for under eye concealer. It is amazing. It just brightens up any shadows, makes everything glowing and lovely. My possibly favorite part is that it only has two colors to choose from, which is great, because I always choose wrong. So, you can't choose wrong, but yes, it's amazing.
Nancy: Did you say it was in a pot?
Emily: It is. Yeah, just a little thing. It's so cute.
Nancy: That's amazing. That is going on our camping list, because you know, we need some under eye. No, I'm just kidding. We never wear makeup when we're in camp, but seriously, we would need it.
Emily: Yes, we would need it, very appropriate.
Nancy: This episode was perfect. For any mom listening for that matter, so-
Emily: Absolutely.
Nancy: ... I'm very excited to try that. What does Work and Play mean to you?
Emily: Again, as Enneagram five, this is just the type of question that I like to go unnecessarily deep on. When I think about working play, I think about two equal ways I can live out the mission God has given me. For lack of a better word, I just feel like he has richly blessed me with my husband, the things I learned from my parents, getting an education, just the basics and on and on. I believe that he has expectations for how I'm going to use that. In Luke, it says that "The one who has been entrusted with much, much will be asked of them."
So I think in my own very small way, I am trying to give away freely whatever I have been given often through my work or my play, whether that's helping people set goals through my work at Cultivate or giving mamas a meal planning hack on Em For Marvelous or just loving my children really well as we play in the backyard. So, that's what I think of work and play. They just are two equal opportunities to kind of get reflect or give back what he's given me.
Nancy: I love that. That's so great. Yeah, wholeheartedly agree. That's beautiful. Okay, drumroll. The last question, how do you maintain a healthy soul and a fulfilling life?
Emily: All right, well, after my last answer, I'm going with a simpler one for this one. One of my core personal beliefs is that a lot of problems can be solved by a daily walk with someone you love and trust. So, most nights after we put the kids to bed, John and I go for a walk just to untangle our days and talk through whatever's on our minds. We've been doing this since we've been together basically. We used to go much farther afield all around the neighborhood, but now we just take our monitor. We walk up and down the sidewalk in front of our house, but it still does the trick. Just that movement and the time with the person I love, it keeps everything on an even keel and helps me figure things out.
Nancy: I love that, so great. I can just see you guys right now, strolling on your... I'm really glad that you address the strolling back and forth in front of the house with the monitor, because I was like, "How did they do that? What happens, because my kids get out after they go to bed? What did they do?" But that is perfect. That makes so much sense.
Emily: Our neighbors probably think we're crazy, but it doesn't matter.
Nancy: It doesn't matter, not at all. No. I think they probably think like, "I wish I could do that." That's what I do think. That's so great. Emily, thank you. I cannot say thank you enough. This conversation was so much fun. I feel like it just rooted me deeper in the belief in camping and camping with friends and making memories and just carving out time in life to do the things that are most important. I'm grateful to have a friend like you in my life to continue to call me to those things. I'm just so grateful for you and so grateful for all the words that you shared today. Thank you.
Emily: Well, I feel exactly the same. This was a joy just as I expected it would be.
Nancy: So fun. Thanks so much, Emily.
Well, it's time for the Work and Play Cornerstore, where we will be adding Emily's contributions, the book Just Mercy as well as her favorite Becca Under Eye Brightening Corrector. The commission from anything bought through these links will help me continue to bring this podcast to you every week.
I'm going to close with words from Joe Walton who said,
"There's a sunrise and a sunset every single day, and they're absolutely free. Don't miss so many of them."
Thanks for listening, and I'll see you next time.
