066 - How the Church Can Respond to Racial Crisis with Dr. Dorrell Briscoe
Our guest today is Pastor, Dr. Harold Dorrell Briscoe.
Dr. Harold Dorrell Briscoe is a writer, speaker, pastor, and public theologian. He focuses on the intersectionality of race, religion, law, and power. He is married to Tracy, and a father to Luke, Noah, Amelia Hope, and Ella Grace.
He is a 2007 graduate of the University of North Florida where he earned his bachelor's degree in Political Science and History. He is a 2009 graduate of the George Bush School of Government and Public Service at Texas A&M University. There he earned a master's degree in Public Administration with a concentration on Urban Planning. Dorrell worked in local and state government for five years, across Florida, Texas, and Louisiana.
Dr. Dorrell also taught at the university level as an adjunct professor teaching public administration, management, and leadership to undergraduate students. While teaching, Dr. Dorrell pursued and was awarded a master's degree in Theological Studies at Liberty University in 2015. Dorrell finished his Doctor of Ministry degree at Duke University in 2017.
He is the founder and Lead Pastor of The Six:Eight Church in Durham, North Carolina. Six:Eight’s vision is to build a gospel community that is cross-cultural and neighborhood-centered by engaging and developing ministries in Downtown Durham and Hayti Community.
Resources from this episode:
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Show Notes:
Today I’m humbled and grateful to have Pastor Dorrell on the Work and Play Podcast. We’re going to talk all about the racial crisis that we’ve been in and how the church, how believers, how you and I should respond during this time, during a racial crisis, and even more than that how to bounce forward, not bounce back, when the current storm we’re in starts to quiet.
I'm going to be honest with you, I get real in this episode. I cry. We both do, actually. I mess up. I'm sure I do. I ask him some vulnerable questions. We give each other a ton of grace and love as a brother and sister in Christ. And I hope that you are encouraged by this conversation. So for a moment, let's put aside our politics and let's come together as a church, as believers, and lean in and listen.
Click play above to listen in, or read through our conversation below!
Nancy: Thank you, Pastor Dorrell, for joining me on the Work And Play Podcast in this incredibly, I don't know, emotional, and tense, and important time in our history. It's such an honor to have you here, and I'm so grateful for you. And yeah, I'm just grateful to have your voice here. And I'm hoping and praying that this time where we can just share an honest conversation together will be a blessing. I know it will be, but will be a blessing to my listeners, and also just informative and helpful. So thank you so much for being here.
Pastor Dorrell: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
Nancy: Well, let's just start by you explaining a little bit about you. I would love to hear who you are. I'd love to hear about your family, just so you can explain to anybody who's listening, just who you are and what you do.
Pastor Dorrell: Right on. Well, first of all, I want to say thank you for having me on the podcast. My wife is a ginormous fan of yours. Your photography, your Instagram account, your podcast. When she found out I was going to be on it, she was like, "You've got to get her autograph. You've got to do some type of thing. I need some type of memorabilia to mark this occasion." Because we met maybe a year or two ago at a wedding. We met at a wedding. You were doing the photography. I was the officiant. And I think I had an Insta Story or something, and she saw you on the Insta Story. And she texts me in like giant caps lock. It was like, "That's Nancy Ray." And I'm like, "Well, who's Nancy Ray? I don't even." She's like, "Please get her picture. Tell her." So is a big deal for our family-
Nancy: You are so sweet.
Pastor Dorrell: This is big leagues right here. So, I mean, forget Gail King. No, forget Gail King or Oprah. It's Nancy Ray, all right? Work and Play with Nancy Ray. All right?
Nancy: Listen, that is the sweetest form of flattery. Also, well, you know I love Tracy, your wife. Also, the more you get to know me, I tell everybody who says these things about me. I'm like, "Listen, if you only knew the level of dork that I really am. I'm such a dork." I promise your high thoughts about me would lower if you hung out with me. But no, I'm really grateful. You're so sweet. I do remember at that reception taking a selfie with you and sending it to your wife and just cracking up. That was awesome. Yeah, no, that wedding was so fun and it was so cool how we connected because as vendors hanging out in the background while everyone else is eating, we just struck up a conversation.
And I just remember you brought the heat during that ceremony. You brought the gospel, you preached your heart. I also remember you took the couple aside and had this secret moment with them. And I was like, "What's going on? This dude really cares." It was just really, really cool to see. I always get really excited when I see great officiants because I have photographed tons of weddings, but anyway, that was really fun that we got connected in that way. Yeah. It was about a year ago. And that we've stayed connected since then, so yeah.
Pastor Dorrell: It was really was. About a year ago. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You came to visit the church and a little bit about me. I'm married to Tracy. We've been married for about nine years. We have four beautiful, fun, energetic kids, two boys, two girls, Luke, Noah, Amelia Hope, and Ella Grace. And they are six, four, three and two. So it is, as you can imagine, as you can relate rather, it is a house of excitement, loudness, just fighting, loving. It's just life is so full. And someone told me the other day, "You know, Dorrell, the days are long, but the years are short with these kids." You just have long days. It's just quarantine and you're at the house. You can't go anywhere, but you just have to keep the proper perspective that "Man, the years are short." Enjoy it, live it, be fully present in it. And that's kind of helped to always recalibrate my perspective when times get challenging with the kids and just juggling life.
Nancy: 100%, yep. You're right. They're in it with you. Yep.
Pastor Dorrell: And so, yeah, right on, right on. And so I've been a pastor for about 10 years. I just started my own church in downtown Durham, Bull City. We love Durham. We love the community and it's called the SIX:EIGHT church that comes from the verse Micah 6:8. It's a scripture that really has marked our lives. "What does God want of you but to do justice and love mercy and walk humbly with your God?" As a church, we're all about fighting for justice. We're all about kindness and mercy and compassion. And our biggest desire is to see people walk with God, to see people be healed, be full, be delivered through a relationship with Jesus Christ. And so that's who we are. We're about a year in existence. We just started weekly services this January, and then go figure, March shut us down. But we still been able to do a bunch of stuff in the community, still gathering together via Zoom, just kind of doing what everyone else is doing. Kind of connecting from a virtual standpoint. But yeah, that's a little bit about me. Life is full and exciting, and happy to be here today.
Nancy: Yeah. I love that. Okay. So, and you also just released a book that just came out.
Pastor Dorrell: Yeah. Right on. Right on.
Nancy: And full disclosure, Pastor Dorrell. I am not done reading it. I said I was really going to try by the time of this interview, but I was like, "I don't know, you know how it is with little kids and," but anyway, I'm part of the way through it. It's been really eye opening, really helpful for me. And we're going to talk a lot about just the principles in that book today. The things that you share, so the title, which I feel like has been prophetic and timely, but the title is There's a Storm Comin': How the American Church Can Lead Through Times of Racial Crisis. And that is where we find ourselves. We are in the middle of a storm.
We are in the middle of one of the biggest storms that we've ever seen in my lifetime. And yeah, and I think that's the question on a lot of our hearts, is how can the American church lead through times of racial crisis? And you break it down in four parts. We're going to talk about that today. But just from my perspective and what I see, I have seen in your life and in Tracy's life, I just want to encourage you because you are leading. I brought Millie one time. I was able to visit your new church one time when service before quarantine shut us down. But I just love the picture of leadership that you guys are.
Nancy: And for those listening, you don't know Dorrell and Tracy and you don't know the church, but even your skin colors. You're a black man. Tracy's a white woman. You have four beautiful children and you have a church that is incredibly diverse, and of one spirit and one heart, and not perfect, we're all learning, but I just wanted to say thank you for that leadership in that picture. I've come from a church that... We've been part of a church for like 13 years. Incredibly diverse, lots of different colors of skin, and voices, and ethnicities. And I love that. Because my heart is Jesus's prayer, which is "As in Heaven here on Earth." And so when we can see that visibly, I think it's powerful.
Pastor Dorrell: That's right. That's right.
Nancy: And I think it's important. And I just wanted to share that with my listeners, because I feel like you might not know that. You're not going to know that if you're listening. You can't see when you're listening. This is a podcast, but I just wanted to kind of paint that picture. I feel like your church, it's starting out, it's small, but it's mighty and I'm really excited to see where you go. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Pastor Dorrell: Right. Thank you.
Nancy: So let's jump into just the contents of your book and answering that question. How can the American church, how can believers lead through times of racial crisis? And you break it down into four parts, which is realization, readiness, responsiveness, and renewal. And I'd like to kind of break each one of those down and just get your thoughts and your heart and perspective on those. So let's just first talk about realization because I think that might be where a lot of us are right now in just the storm that we're in. We have to realize what's going on and what's happening. So can you speak to realization and that part of this kind of equation of allowing the church to lead?
Pastor Dorrell: Absolutely. Yeah. Right on. Well, realization, really the entire framework of the four Rs comes from my work in the field of public policy. So before ministry, I was actually in government for six years. I was inspired to go into government after Hurricane Katrina hit the Gulf Coast and decimated New Orleans. I remember sitting, watching TV as a 20 year old kid and being just completely shellshocked and vowing that I would be in government and work to make sure something like this doesn't happen again. That government would be effective, efficient in its response. And so for years I focused on public policy, neighborhood revitalization, natural disaster resiliency, climate change adaptation. Kind of big words, but essentially what kind of the genesis of this book occurred when I started to see similarities between climate change and the drastic shifts that have occurred in America's sociopolitical climate over the last decade.
And I started to see these parallels between powerful storms like hurricanes and these racialized storms, these crises, that we're experiencing right now with the death of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery. These crises that produce an enormous amount of shock, division, and outrage across the cultural landscape of America. And so I started to look at this from the lens of mitigation, from the lens of preparedness, which kind of hearkens back to my previous work before ministry, which was how can we make sure coastal communities are becoming resilient and building the proper infrastructure and capacity to weather the storms?
And as I started to think about that realm of climate change and natural disaster resiliency, I was like, "Wait a minute. What if the church started to look at this issue, these racial crises, from the lens of preparedness?" We have to realize that our social political climate has changed. We've had a black president. We are experiencing massive demographic shifts in our country. We're seeing the rise of the alt right. We're seeing the rise of the powerful social justice movement known as black lives matter. We've got to realize that stuff is changing. Times are changing. And we've got to be ready for that, and we've got to be aware of that. And that needs to inform decisions that we take as an organization, but also as individuals. So we have to realize, the first point is realization, as you said. And it's all about defining what our racial crisis is and why they hurt the church. If the church is silent or characterized by inaction. So that's what realization is all about.
Nancy: I love this part in the book where you say, "If the church is to truly be a healing place for a hurting world, then it must take the lead in truth, finding and reconciliation. It must become a place with deep, psychological, and emotional wounds that congregants suffer from racialized storms can be addressed, rehabilitated, and healed." And I thought that was beautiful because really in this realization process as the church, we have to know there is some pain in the black community that we haven't really been realizing and we need to be a voice to say "Welcome. Here are the answers for that," instead of, "Oh, that kind of scares me or I don't know what to do with that." So how do we come to that realization? Do you have any encouragement as a pastor, how do we come to that realization and really open our eyes as a church?
Pastor Dorrell: Absolutely. Yeah. Awareness realization, being cognizant of other people's pain is so critical to dealing with these crises, to loving, encouraging, and being an instrument of healing of people of color in predominantly white spaces. And a lot of times I think the realization part is hard, because really western Euro-American ideology and theology is kind of rooted in this hyper individualism. And so it's this kind of belief that really has a strong current in our social political river. And I think a lot of times it blinds Christians, my white brothers and sisters to the ramifications of social structures that produce inequality.
And so one of the things that we can start doing that I highlight in my book is we need to start taking concrete steps to educate ourselves on three particular issues, the America's historical record on race, systemic inequalities and racism that happen today, and then also the lived experience of black people. And I think that can be done practically from watching documentaries and reading books. If you go on my website, dorrellbriscoe.com, that's D-O-R-R-E-L-L, Briscoe, B-R-I-S-O-E. If you go into the resource page, I have about three to four books, documentaries, and public theologians and activists that you can follow that can help educate you and help make you more aware of what is going on and why people are so hurt, why there's so much outrage and rage.
I mean, it almost shocks you when you see the news and you see the rioting, you see the protest, you see the tears, you see the anguish. You have to understand that that is rooted in historical trauma. It goes beyond just an individualized occurrence of police brutality. It is compounded with and tied to decades, centuries of historical trauma at the hands of police and other structures that we've put in place that have diminished the image of God and our black brothers and sisters. So I would practical step here. Number one, check out that resource page. Listen, we're all getting flooded with things that we can do. There's so much. And I'm sure we'll talk about that more in the podcast. There's there's just a flood of information. Do this, do that, donate here, sign up here, do this.
I think the most important thing for you to do is for God to work and mend on your heart, for the great potter to shape and get in there and work on your heart so you can be filled with compassion. So like the Bible says, you can love, mercy, and kindness and see this issue through the lens of empathy and understanding. And I think that happens when we expose ourselves to pain, we expose ourselves to the root of the wound, and that is done through some fantastic documentaries and resources that I have on my website. And so I would encourage you. Really, I'll give you one documentary. White Like Me and 13th. White Like Me is on YouTube. 13th is on Netflix. Fantastic documentaries to watch. And then the book, a great book that you can start is Tears We Cannot Stop by Michael Eric Dyson. A fantastic book about where the pain comes from in the black community.
Nancy: Thank you for sharing those. I'll be sure to link podcast episodes so people can easily find them too. Yeah. I think education is absolutely where it starts. And I think there's this, I don't know. I'm finding myself, if I can be totally honest, this hesitation to educate myself, just because it feels overwhelming, like you said. And there are so many resources. And I'm kind of afraid that I'm going to choose the wrong one, which I don't know if there's a wrong, I guess at this point, there's not a wrong one that you can choose because getting educated, there's nothing wrong with reading someone else's opinion or a set of experiences. Those are the things we need to be doing right now. But I think there's just a lot of emotions with this that we're all kind of sifting through.
And it's like, "Which one? Where do I start? Which one do I do?" But I think the good thing, and the important thing to remember, is if we can focus on our hearts, just like you said, if we can just allow the Lord to give us more humility, more of a listening ear, and just the willingness to say, "Lord, you teach me, you guide this path." Then he will lead us and help us use wisdom to really accept what we need to hear, to have the church make the greater change, and us as individuals, because that is the church. It's not a building, it's the people. So yeah, that's just me kind of processing Pastor Dorrell. Yeah. It's like-
Pastor Dorrell: Love that. And so Nancy, you've got to give yourself grace. And some folks may not like that I say that. Some folks who are woke, part of the movement, "Let's go." Like "Grace? No, we need y'all in the thing. We need to do this. We need to do that." Listen. The fact that we are seeing a ground swell of support by white folk who certainly aren't racist, but probably are maybe a bit ignorant or unaware of how deep this wound goes. The fact that we are seeing such a groundswell of support, where we seeing folks who are saying, "You know what? I am listening. I am learning. I am praying." This is a historical moment in our nation's story. And you have to give yourself grace and understand. And I quote this hashtag all the time. It's from the late rapper, Nipsey Hussle. It's the title of one of his most popular mix-tapes.
And he says, "The marathon continues." You'll see me quoting that. And why do I do that? Because this work is a marathon. It is not a sprint. You don't run a hundred meters really fast and "All right, I'm completely knowledgeable and I'm filled with insight. And I know exactly where to volunteer my time and mobilize my resources and spheres of influence." It is a marathon. And so we have to pace ourselves, we've got to get into a rhythm of grace, and we have to continue to pray, work. But also give ourselves a bit of grace here or not to be, and don't beat yourself up with these goals with everything going on.
Nancy: Yeah, we all need grace. I mean, every day. We all need grace, no matter where you find yourself in this journey, we need more grace. And praise God that his mercies are new every morning. And you're right. It's a marathon. And thank goodness his mercies will be new every single morning as we continue forward in this. So yeah, that's a good word. This part of your book, I felt like, I was like, "Pastor Dorrell, how in the world did you write this three years ago?" Because I feel like this was written for this week in particular. But you said technology... So you have this whole page about technology. I'm not going to read the whole thing, but all of it, I was mind blown.
This is exactly what's happening. But talking about social media, I think a lot of us have felt really heavy, really emotionally kind of stirred up a lot of different emotions all week. I can't even imagine what it's been like for the black community. I feel like there's no way for me to know, but just every time you pick up your phone, it's almost like this, "Whew." It's just a lot that we're all kind of seeing and feeling. And you say in your book, "Technology, if not put in its proper place, can rob us of the ability to listen with empathy. It steals intentionality and vulnerability. If the church is to be a vibrant community filled with flawed people, it must acknowledge the potential pitfalls and perils of taking to social media to air out opinions during heated moments that affect our sociopolitical landscape. Can you speak to that for a minute?
Pastor Dorrell: Absolutely. That's great. Yeah. That was one of my eight factors that I argued, that I stated, that's leading to great sociopolitical climate change. My dad was in TV news for 20 years, he was a professor in communications. I grew up in the world of TV news, and the media certainly drives narratives, and they thrive off ratings. Let's be clear. However, because of technological advancements, we now have the ability in real time to capture information footage, blast it, it's shared, and now it creates this new narrative.
Nancy: Yeah.
Pastor Dorrell: It drives the news cycle in a way. Think about it, it wasn't CNN or Fox News, or MSNBC recording George Floyd's death. It was bystanders with a camera phone that was in real time recording a man being executed.
And so, what we have to realize that there is great power and advantage in social media, but it can also devolve into this evil, mean-spirited back and forth. So I argue, I believe that we need to look at our social media accounts. What we post. We have to look at that through two things. Number one, we've got to look at it through the context of civility and constructive dialogue.
One thing that I've been encouraged to see many of my white friends and white acquaintances, is the hashtag listening and learning, or listening, learning. It's this pause that they're taking and going, "Okay. I'm digesting this thing here. I never wanted to eat it before, because I always thought it'd taste nasty. But now I'm going to taste this thing, I'm going to digest this thing, and I'm going to listen and learn here." That's what we need more as opposed to knee jerk reactions, that we post, that we fire out there, that we haven't take the time to gather our thoughts.
There's going to be a lot of different things out there that triggers us. We're seeing constant images of police brutality in reaction to protests. We're seeing rioting and looting. I believe from a small handful. I don't think that's the majority of peaceful protesting, the people that are out there doing that. But we're seeing that.
We're seeing cities that we love be damaged and destroyed. Small businesses that have already been suffering under Covid19, now are dealing with another pandemic. And so, I think just taking time to pause, collect our thoughts, listen, learn, and pray before we post things.
Take into account the dignity and the respect of others. Listen, if I just come out here and blast, "Well, you white folks need to use your white privilege. What are y'all doing? You got to use your platform, power, and privilege." I've got to realize that there are some white folks that don't understand that terminology, that see that as a direct attack on the hard work that they have done their entire lives.
It's hard to take into account their dignity. I should take into account where they're from, and I need to communicate with grace and with truth and with civility, and I think that is so critical in this digital age.
Nancy: I couldn't agree more. I think coming back to the truth that we are all made in God's image, and we all have that inherent dignity, and there's a safety that's found in Instagram, or Twitter, or whatever social media platform you use, where you feel safe enough to say something that you would never have the boldness to say to someone's face.
Pastor Dorrell: That's right. Yep.
Nancy: I care so deeply. if you knew me, you do know me, but maybe not on this level yet, you would know that I take everything to heart.
Pastor Dorrell: Sure. Right.
Nancy: I am a person, and even though I somehow have accumulated somewhat of a following on Instagram, every comment and message affects my heart-
Pastor Dorrell: Sure.
Nancy: My mind, my home. I feel emotional saying this, just because I care deeply, and I think we have got to start believing the best in other people.
Pastor Dorrell: Sure.
Nancy: Because I think what I've seen and experienced, even in just the past few weeks, is my brown and black colored friends, but also my white friends, if they're a little bit further down the road from this than me, if they're a little bit further down this path and they have maybe a little bit more knowledge than me, or have read more books than me, or learned about it, they're the ones calling me out and calling me names, too.
Pastor Dorrell: Sure.
Nancy: And I'm like, "That's not helping me either."
Pastor Dorrell: No it's not.
Nancy: My heart. I'm wanting to learn. And so, I think if we can all totally embrace what you're saying, civility, dignity, love. Let our words. That's the way we're going to move this thing forward, is not pointing fingers and saying, "You don't even know what you're talking about." I'm not saying I do know. I'm just trying to show up exactly where I am, and be a real human.
And I think just giving grace, right? That is it. Knowing that we don't all know everything. I don't know everything about you, you don't know everything about me, and let's just give grace and give people the benefit of the doubt. And that's a hard ask. I'm full aware that's a hard ask with a lot of the pain that people have been through is to give people the benefit of the doubt.
Pastor Dorrell: Sure.
Nancy: But I do think that is the way forward, because we all are precious, and we all have feelings, and tearing each other down is not the way to bring about change. Like you said, give yourself grace, give others grace, let's move the conversation forward in a way that is loving. Yeah. I just thought that part of your book was so timely. I'm like, "Yes. This is not about (silence) it is about showing up in real life and having lasting change."
Pastor Dorrell: Right. Absolutely.
Nancy: The second R in this process, it's establishing readiness, and you said that you framed these Rs around natural disaster mitigation strategies, right? So tell me what can we do to be ready?
Pastor Dorrell: Yeah. Right. Exactly. And so, here I just break down the terms, the concepts of adaptation, mitigation, preparedness, and I'm talking about we've got to start doing the work of racial justice, reconciliation, and unity now. That is how we become ready for these crises is we start to devote. And then speaking more from an institutional standpoint, but I think institutions and individuals can be fairly interchangeable throughout the book.
I think that you could project yourself into some of the things I talked about when it comes to the organizations, but I'm saying, "Okay, we've had the realizations. We need to be aware. Now we need to establish readiness." We need to work for actionable change within our communities, within our church context, but then also in our broader community. And so, what can we do? I talk about a variety of things, but essentially I'm like, "Listen, we need to be aware."
And I give an example of the story of Joseph in the bible, and then I talk about, okay, let's look at what climate change adaptation experts are doing. What do they do to prepare cities, communities, organizations, and one big thing is they focus on the three Cs. Cooperation, collaboration, and coordination with community stakeholders.
We have to realize that this storm is bigger than us. This is what happens in that field. I got my master's degree in public policy in Texas and then worked in Louisiana, and as I worked with these stakeholders, these organizations, we realized that we got to link up together.
We've got to come together, because guess what? When a cat 4, cat 5 storm comes, that's going to be a lot bigger than me, and it's going to be a lot bigger than you. So what we need to do is pool resources, pool ideas. We've got to come together to make sure that our infrastructure, our communications is resilient, we're building capacity, and so the same thing. What are we doing as individuals? How are we linking up with stakeholders in our community? Organizations that have been doing the work.
What are we doing to lend our time, our money, our resources to these organizations that are fighting for societal change. What that does when we link up together, we are exposed to different ideas, perspectives that remove ourselves from our homogenous echo chambers, and get us into different spheres, different places, where we're learning, where we're growing, where we're building relationships together, and I think as we do that, it not only will help us as individuals learn more, but I think also for organizations will be in a better position, in a place to lead through, to respond to, and learn from these crises.
So really the big thing is cooperation, collaboration, coordination. I talk a lot about that in the book. I don't want to spend a ton of time doing that right now, but essentially, what can I do to link up and connect with organizations that have been doing the work? What can I envision for my organization? What strategies can I implement in my life? I think, like I said, the marathon continues. If you're going to run a marathon, a lot of times, people have a goal.
They said, "I want to run at this mile pace. At mile 16, I'd like to be here." What type of metrics and goals are you giving maybe yourself, or your organization when it comes to working for reconciliation, unity, and justice? And so that's why I'm just saying, "Hey, let's take some time to get in this work and get ready now before the storm hits so we'll be in a better position to lead through.”
Nancy: So good. That's so helpful, and also I think the big takeaway there is when I picture a cat 4, cat 5 hurricane coming in, you do have to link arms across the board. You have to say- "Okay, this is bigger than us."
Pastor Dorrell: Yes.
Nancy: "What do we need to do to prepare now so that we're ready when it comes." Even when it's peaceful.
Pastor Dorrell: Yes.
Nancy: Even when there's not even a sign of a storm on the horizon, that's the time when you need to be preparing. Otherwise, when it comes, we won't know what to do. So powerful. Okay, so let's move on to responsiveness. You say there's a need for timely and dynamic response when a racialized crisis occurs, which is where we are now, because it produces profound racial division and tension, and Christian leaders have to speak to this. We have to respond to this. We can't be silent.
Pastor Dorrell: Absolutely.
Nancy: I've certainly learned that this week.
Pastor Dorrell: Yeah.
Nancy: Speak to that a little bit. What is the role of the church and believers in response.
Pastor Dorrell: Sure. That's so great. One of the things, being in the ministry for 10 years, serving at two predominately large white churches, numerous campus ministries, one of the things that I've seen in commonality when it comes to the issue of race, racial tension, has been silence from the pulpit and from the organization. It's that proclivity of the silence that says, "Yeah I don't really want to rock the boat. I don't want to offend people. I'm just not going to say anything."
But the reality is, Christian leaders, my white brothers and sisters, make matters worse by not responding in times of crises. Jim Wallace, incredible public theologian, Christian leader, and this is in the book, recalled in a conference he had with several faith leaders, he said that on that call, the leader of a nation wide network of black clergy said even more painful to many black pastors than America's continuing racism is the silence of white Christians.
Black pastors still don't hear very many of their white clergy brothers and sisters in Christ speaking with prophetic clarity about the stark differences and the ways that white and black young men even in their respective congregations, continue to be treated by police offices. And why the silence when almost none of the officers involved in the shooting of young African Americans have yet to be held accountable? So, I talk about in this section of the book, speaking up against injustice.
Using your platform, your social media. I think that you got to be a good steward of it. And we talked about that before. But how can I be a steward of my platform, and my power, in a way that is constructive and civil? Does it mean that you got to post Black Lives Matter information every single day? Does it mean that you got to black out Tuesday and all these things? What it does mean is that you have to be aware that you speaking up as a white person means so much. It shows solidarity.
It shows that you see me. You see my value. You understand some of the conditions that I got to deal with as a young black man, as a young black woman. That picture in Genesis of Hagar running away over the mistreatment that she was experiencing at the hands of Sarah. And what happens? God says, "I see you." He finds her in her pain, in her anguish, affirms her, sees her and hears her. What about the Israelites who were suffering under the harsh brutality of the Egyptians? What did God say to Moses?
I have certainly heard their cries. I have seen their tears. I am not okay with their oppression. That is the heart of God. The heart of God looks out and scans the horizon of folks who are being marginalized and oppressed, and says, "I see you. I identify with you. Guess what? I sent my brown skinned Afro Asiatic first century Palestinian Jew son Jesus Christ who lived under Roman colonization and brutality."
Nancy: Oh yeah.
Pastor Dorrell: You start doing your history on how brutal the Romans were, and how they subjugated entire people groups. They were ruthless. When you start reading that history. And God says, "I'm sending my son to live under that context. And to identify with folks who are dealing with that, to die for all of humanity's sin." I get so fired up about this.
Nancy: Yeah.
Pastor Dorrell: Because I'm like, "This is the heart of God." And so when you use your platform, when you call out racist language or jokes in your context, when you respond, the solidarity that it shows is so immense, and so impactful. I tell this story, and I'll tell it to you real quick. One time when I was 15 years old, I was at a cross country camp in North Carolina. How about that? It was in Brevard, North Carolina, and I'm from Florida, and we stopped for the night in Macon, Georgia.
It was a long trip from South Florida to North Carolina, and I'm with my cross country teammates, all of them were white, and we're hungry teenagers. We walked from our hotel, to I think it was a Denny's, and we're just scarfing on waffles and omelets at 10 o'clock at night, doing what teenagers do. And we're walking back to the hotel, and I see this red pickup truck drive past us, pump the brakes, turn around, and start to follow us, and I even as a 15 year old kid knew what was about to happen. I knew that they saw me, and they pulled right alongside of us.
They rolled down their window, and they started screaming the N word, throwing beer cans at me, screaming, yelling at me, as loud as they could. N word, this, get out of here boy. You don't belong in these parts. N word this, N word that. And what happened was as a 15 year old kid, Nancy, these white kids literally had to form a human shield around me. These two men followed us back to our hotel room. Once we got to the hotel room, I was just completely devastated. I was embarrassed, I felt full of shame, and I didn't even know how to express my emotions.
Nancy: 15, yeah.
Pastor Dorrell: Nancy, I was 15. I was a kid, and no one said anything. I don't really blame them, Nancy.
Nancy: Yeah.
Pastor Dorrell: I don't think they knew what to say. I think everyone just shut the lights off and then went to bed. But Nancy, there was one boy, his name was Corbin, he didn't even go to my high school, he actually went to a rival school, but he hitched a ride with our team to Brevard for the cross country camp, and I'll never forget Nancy, him getting up from the bed in this dark hotel room, coming over to my side of the bed, kneeling down, laying his hand on my shoulder. I'm sorry, I'm getting emotional…
Nancy: It's all right. You're good. I'm already crying, it's fine.
Pastor Dorrell: 15 years later. Actually, nearly 20 years later. But he puts his hand on my shoulder, and he gives me like, "Hey kid, get up." And our teammates were listening, they were awake. He said, "What happened out there was wrong, and it shouldn't have happened, and it was evil. But I want to let you know that I see, I hear you, and I stand with you." And he pulled me in a big old bear hug. This 16 year old goofy nerdy white kid, who in that moment chose to do something about my pain. Chose to stand, and to vocalize his solidarity.
And in that moment Nancy, where emotional bones were shattered, my emotional bones that were just broken and fractured, God in an instant used a 16 year old skinny nerdy white kid to start to mend and set those bones back in place. And that's what we're talking about here, right? We're talking about white folks using your platform and your voice to begin to mend broken emotional bones. To begin to be a balm to the historical trauma and wound that we have experienced.
So when I talk about responding, I say, "Hey, listen." I talk about the prophetic insights, and prophetic leadership and what we can learn from the prophets in the bible and how they spoke truth to power, how they spoke with moral clarity and effectiveness, and that's all great, you can read that in the book. But hear my heart here. You being intentional, decisive, and standing with us, that is what begins to initiate the process of healing.
When we see your voices, when we see you form a shield around our heart, around our soul, sucking out that bitterness that has poisoned so many folks of color, that is what God is going to use to bring reconciliation, to bring unity, and to fight for justice and the flourishing of brothers and sisters who are made in the image of God.
And so that was the emphasis, that was the ethos behind this section. It was remembering that story. Nancy, from nearly 20 years ago, of a skinny nerdy white kid, that literally I believed God used to save me, to deliver me, to help me in a time of great crisis.
Nancy: That's a powerful story, I think, as I'm just listening and crying. I don't know. I can't speak for everyone listening, but some people have witnessed and been part of stories like that, and others haven't. And I think just speaking for myself, and I can't speak for pastors, but as a white person, I get scared because I don't know what to say. I am with Corbin. My heart is, that is evil, and I speak that again. That is evil, and that is wrong, and that should never have happened.
That is evil and that is wrong, and that should never have happened. Dorrell, you were 15. That is trauma at such a young age and it breaks my heart.
Pastor Dorrell: Yeah.
Nancy: Absolutely. I mean, that you ever had to experience that, just such shame and embarrassment for no reason, it's ugly. It's from the enemy. It's horrid. But I think we've got to find our voice to stand up against the evil. But I think sometimes I've just been afraid I'm going to say the wrong thing if I'm honest. You know?
Pastor Dorrell: Right. Sure, sure.
Nancy: But I also am crying because I care so deeply about it. And so I think we're at this place now where we have to respond and we have to know it's not okay to not say something, but at the same time, do the heart work and live it out in our lives.
So, anyway, again, this is me processing things on my podcast, but it's just so important and I'm just so grateful for that story because... God bless Corbin, you know? That is the heart that we should have as the church to mend the broken hearts and put those broken, shattered bones back together, and just weep with our brothers and sisters, and wrap our bear-hug arms around them and just say, "I don't know what that's like, but it's wrong and I'm so sorry you've had to walk through that. There's nothing okay about that."
And I don't know what to say, but I care and I'm standing with you. And we're going to get through the rest of this podcast episode. I don't know how, but...
Pastor Dorrell: Hmm... I know, I know! We're about to have a crying fest right here.
Nancy: But those are the instances that we want to eradicate.
Pastor Dorrell: Nancy, I'll tell you, with Corbin, he was one of the first kids that immediately, when those guys pulled up right next to us, rolled down their window, he's the one, the first kid, that grabbed me and shielded me. Okay?
And how about this? One thing about Corbin: He went to Booker High School in Sarasota, Florida. That's where I'm from; Sarasota, Florida. I went to Riverview High School. Riverview High School was a predominantly white high school, and we would bus kids from the area where Booker High School was, Newtown. That was the black community in Sarasota, Florida. Corbin was one of the few white kids at Booker High School, which is a predominantly black school in Sarasota Port. At least it was at the time. I'm sure it still is now.
So I think there was something to be said about the fact that he was intentional about cultivating relationships with people of color. He had to because he went to school there. Now listen, he could've been like a lot of white kids and white families that (and this is historical, this is a historical fact) when integration occurred, they took their kids out of these schools, put them into what? Private schools, Christian schools, whatever. They fought against integration by what we know now as white flight, right? It's the whole concept (and this is a whole other conversation about systemic racism), this kind of en masse move to the suburbs where you are surrounded by people that look like you. But Corbin's parents bucked that trend and they said, "No, he's going to go to an all black school."
And so I think something can be said about the fact that this 16-year-old kid surrounded himself and was friends with a lot of black people. So when he saw injustice occur, when he saw someone trying to diminish the Imago Dei and his brother, he stood up and was like, "No! I'm in a relationship with these people. These are my brothers and sister. That's my brother. So, an attack on him is an attack on me. I'm with you." And I think that's something to be said about cultivating relationships with people of color, cultivating friendships. I'm listening, I'm learning. It might be a little messy, you might say.
I'm not married to a white woman. We've had conversations where I'm like, "Whew! Not good! You don't say that!" You know? We joke about it now, and it's cute and it's funny. But I'm not getting on her case. You know? But we've had these conversations and we laugh about it. But it's a marathon. It's a process. It's a journey. You've got to give yourself grace. You're learning, you're listening. Don't let the fear...
See, that's the enemy, in my opinion. That's fear. The devil wants to deposit fear. God wants to deposit courage. Right? And so I think that's a trick of the enemy. And I'm getting serious here. I'll try not to preach here, but that's the trick of it. You know what I'm saying? That's a trick of the enemy. That's like, "Okay, let me fill their hearts with fear of saying the wrong thing, so they won't say anything at all." Like, "Oh, wait a minute!" No, I think that's a tactic, a brilliant tactic of the enemy.
And so I think that, yeah, as white people continue to listen, learn, humble themselves, be patient...
And listen, I've got to speak to my black brothers and sisters too. Listen, we've got to extend grace to them, because I get it. We've been in the struggle. We've been in the fight. We not only are seeing in real time the tragedy of a George Floyd, of a Breonna Taylor, but that's compounded with daily micro-aggressions and discriminatory actions that are taken against us. And so there are folks that are weary. There are folks that are sick and tired of being sick and tired. And I think sometimes, Nancy, that can manifest in this frustration with white folks. And that could be like, "Well, you're not doing it right. You're not..." We've got to be willing to extend grace and be thankful for the support and for the solidarity that they have towards us.
Nancy: Yeah, I completely agree. I would ask my black brothers and sisters, please extend grace to me, please do, because I'm a person. I will mess up. I'm trying to use my voice, but I'm pretty positive I'm going to mess this thing up along the way at some point.
But I just don't want to give in to that tactic of the enemy. You know, I'm afraid I'm going to say the wrong thing, so I'm not going to say anything. Yeah. Fear is a powerful thing and I think it's good to acknowledge that in this conversation, for sure, and just the need to give grace on both sides, because we're all humans. We all have different paths, different stories, different experiences, different emotions. But if we can just agree on the end goal and what we're striving for, which is that renewal (which we'll talk about now), and also that we're all angry and fighting against the common enemy, which is evil and racism, and let's link arms and not get so caught up in all the details and the rights and wrongs.
And I get that we're going to mess up, and you're right, it's messy. But let's just keep our eye on the prize, right? On that end goal of the marathon.
So, renewal... Let's take a deep breath and focus on this part because this is the hope and this is the thing that we think, in the midst of this mess, we are all longing for and striving for. And it's not going to be perfect this side of heaven. Let's go ahead and say that. It's not going to be perfect, but I also don't want to say, "Oh, we're never going to attain this. It's not going to happen. Let's not try for it." No! As in heaven, here on earth. Let's do this and let's go after renewal, because you say renewal radically challenges faith leaders and congregations to reorient who they are, how they do church after a racialized storm. Renewal is all about learning and implementing changes so that churches can become resilient institutions in the face of changing sociopolitical climate.
So let's talk about renewal.
Pastor Dorrell: Absolutely. You know, renewal comes from strategies and the thought and ideology of climate-change adaptation and natural-disaster mitigation. You know, practitioners in these fields, they ask themselves when disasters occur, "What can we learn from them? How can they be used as a catalyst to seek greater institutional change, to be better prepared for the next storm?"
So we've got to begin to look at these crises, a George Floyd, a Breonna Taylor, a Philando Castile, Charleston 9, a Trayvon Martin. Right? Keith Lamont Scott, Terence Crutcher. Instead of just saying, "Okay, that was really bad. Oh my gosh, this is so bad. I didn't know." You know, folks, we're still dealing with this stuff. How can we use this issue and the severity of it, the fever pitch, how can we use it as a catalyst to change what needs to shift in our lives?
You know, we've got to harness the energy that these crises bring (and this is in page 154 of the book) and use it to our advantage, our advantage of fighting against racial discord and division. We've got to think through, "Okay, what can we learn?" Because a lot of times we quickly, kind of, have this amnesia. We forget. We move on. And we have to realize that, listen, we've got a small window of time here to respond to these events. So, what can we learn? And how can these things be seen as balls of energy in a way that help us begin the process of bringing new life and vigor to individuals and organizations in communities, to help us stay in this fight, to help us learn from what we've experienced?
And so I just challenge people in this section. Don't just try to move, get past the storm. Right? I mean, the whole concept "There's a storm coming" comes from my time growing up in Florida. When we would say that to each other, that means that there's a hurricane coming. And guess what you've got to do? You've got to board up the windows. You've got to buy a bunch of water.
You know, Florida sticks out like a sore thumb in the ocean, right? So, you grow up in Florida, you're like, "Oh man, there's a storm coming."
"There's a storm coming?"
"Yeah, there's a storm coming."
"Oh, man. Okay."
So, when we say that, that means that's a call for action. But a lot of times we just try to get through the storm. But what if we take time and process of what we can learn from the storm, what we can learn from ourselves, as we process through emotions and thoughts and feelings towards these things?
That's my heart's desire when it comes to this. I think this is in page 159 of the book. It's common to hear the phrase "bounce back" when talking about recovery from a major storm. Public discourse has focused on how to get these communities to bounce back from these storms. However, what would it look like instead of bouncing back, if these communities bounced forward? What have these communities learned about planning, vulnerability, storm readiness, and recovery?
So, project yourself into that. If you're a pastor, if you're a Christian leader, a faith leader, "What can I learn about vulnerability in my community? What can I learn about recovery?" Again, "What can I learn about bouncing forward and being in a place where I am being a part of the process of healing and hope? I am being a beacon where unity is being radiated in our community?"
So I'm rambling here, but essentially that's kind of the heart behind that section: bouncing forward. What can we learn? And utilizing these things as a catalyst for greater change in our own life.
Nancy: And so that is where we find ourselves right now, in this storm and where we are. You know, I'm thankful. I do feel like we are going to bounce forward. My friend, Shunta, just posted on her Instagram, she's hopeful but skeptical. She's hopeful that we're going to bounce forward, but a little skeptical because she doesn't really know if she believes it's actually going to happen. And I think this is just a time for us to really stop and ask ourselves, "How can we really bounce forward at an individual level?" Because that's where it starts. But also I think it's just really important for the church to be thinking that and our businesses to be thinking that. You know? How can we really take this forward and let this produce lasting change in us?
Pastor Dorrell: Right. And I think that comes from the racial crisis framework before ours. It's a cycle, right? So, how do you renew? How can you learn? Well, you learn by continuing to be more aware, by realizing what is going on. And as you realize, you start to get ready. And when you get ready, you're in a better position to respond because you've done the work. You've been in the trenches. You've been aware. And then guess what? The next time this crisis hits, hopefully we can reduce the severity and disruption of it, for being in a better position to be ready and to respond. But if it occurs again, guess what? We're learning more and we're utilizing it and harnessing it for even more change.
Nancy: So good. All right, so I want to take this conversation to a point that's like me being real with you Dorrell, where I'm at, talking about emotions that I've experienced. Pastor Dorrell, I'm thankful for you. I feel like this is a safe space to just kind of talk about some things. And I think people listening might also relate to this, and I would just love for you to speak into these things, because this is just, honestly, where I've been at.
So I think, this last week, what I've seen on Instagram, social media, there's been a lot of controversial things said to me, or that I've kind of taken from different people's Instagram captions or whatever. You know? So, a couple of examples: "Speak up, don't be silent. Don't side with the oppressor." Okay, so I speak up or say something, or somebody else does. And then when you do speak up, oh man, totally say the wrong thing. You're getting slammed for it, you know?
"Post the black square! Black Out Tuesday! Do the thing."
"No, no, no! Take the black square down. That is not a way to support your black community." You know?
"Reach out to a black friend. Call them, don't text, because that's offensive."
But then when I did that, one of my black friends was like, "Hey, text me. This is the only thing I can do right now because I'm going to cry." You know?
"Don't ask your black friends. You've got to do the work yourself." You know?
"Feel empathy for them, but don't cry. Feel empathy, try to have a heart for them, but you can't cry because white women's tears are oppressive," and all these things.
I feel like I have been a ping-pong ball and it's exhausting. I'm not comparing my exhaustion to the exhaustion of the black community at all. I'm just speaking from where I'm at. Right? And so, if you can say (this is me just being very real), I would just love for you to speak to that. What would you say to all of that, that I'm feeling right now?
Pastor Dorrell: You know, I don't know if I could add anything else to what I have said in this interview, which is, it is a marathon. There's a lot to learn. You've got to pace yourself. Try not to take it too personally. Give grace to yourself, but also hear me as a black man saying that the black community, we've got to extend grace as well. You know? I mean, shoot, the whole black-out square, I did it. And I put #Black Lives Matter and then someone corrected me like, "Don't put that! That's messing up the black square."
"Oh gosh, I'll take it down!" You know what I'm saying?
And here I am, I've been in this work for years, have my dissertation in this stuff, literally a Scholar, if you will, on this issue. And I'm getting it wrong. And so I'm like, "Oh gosh."
So I think the more you're educated on this stuff and aware of this stuff and learning from this stuff, the more I think poise and maybe etiquette, when it comes to language and what to do, I think that will help you.
It's like a language, right? If I'm immersing myself in a language, if I move to Spain for two months, and I'm constantly surrounded by it, I'm immersed in it, over time I'm going to be better at my communication. Now, it may look rough. They may be like, "Dude, wait, what?" You know, I might be at a restaurant and be like speaking a different language and they're like, "Why are you talking about the bathroom? You need to order a steak."
"What? What? No."
So there are going to be blunders, but I think as immersion occurs, you will be more adept. You will be more poised. You will have more of, like I said, an etiquette when it comes to dealing with this issue.
And let's be honest with you. Being in the digital age is constantly changing. I mean, in real time, there's constantly new trends, new thoughts. "Don't say this, don't say that." You know? You've got to get to the bread and butter. You've got to stick with the bread and butter. You've got to stick with "What is priority here? What's the value here? What's the priority?" The priority here is I see in here my black brothers and sisters, and I'm going to amplify their voices. I'm going to take time to de-center some of the things going on in my world and re-center their humanity, their beauty, their intelligence, their culture. I think if you stick with that and you use your platform in a good stewarding way, if you steward that in a good way, rather, I think that's what really matters.
It's hard for me to say that because I'm a black man, so I'm not a white person. That is putting myself in your shoes, where I'm like, man, that's got to be interesting for people who genuinely want to make a change, sincerely want to get involved, but are getting blasted. They're just getting blasted, you know? But my thing, I'm like, "Come on, we've got to give these people grace." You know?
Drew Brees has recently stirred up some controversy with... He said in an interview (Drew Brees, the quarterback for the New Orleans Saints), asked about all this going on, he said, "I'm not going to tolerate anyone who disrespects the flag or our country. I will never tolerate it." And he just got drug through the mud. I mean, LeBron James, white sports athletes, black sports athletes, were calling him out. That was, I think, an insensitive thing to say. That was a battle line that was drawn, that was just like, "Ah, Drew, I don't know if that was the best thing."
But my thing is, if you're taking actionable steps and speaking out, I don't see why we've got to drag folks for doing that. So, folks are dragging Taylor Swift who forcefully spoke out a couple of days ago. And you've got folks that are dragging her through the mud like, "Where you been? Why haven't you been here before?" I'm like, "Let Taylor do Taylor!" Come on, man. She's not here standing with us. How are we going to drag her through the mud and blast her because, "Oh, she's just getting to the fight. She's just..." We've got to give folks grace that are becoming aware of this stuff.
Nancy: Yeah, and she probably was getting so much hate for the time that she was quiet and not saying anything. And then as soon as she speaks up, she gets even more hate and it's like you can't win. We can't win is how it feels.
Pastor Dorrell: She's getting blasted.
So I'm going to say this. I'll say this unequivocally, very clearly. Any step you take that is bringing awareness to our plight, to oppression, naming statistics, centering voices - that is an actionable step to change. So I want to encourage you not to beat yourself up over that. That's not fair. We are so grateful for your voice. We are so grateful for your platform. I am grateful to be on this podcast right now to be talking to you about it. I am humbled and grateful.
But the reality is there. Nancy, there's going to be some bad actors out there. They're just mean. Listen, they're just mean-spirited. You've just got mean-spirited folks. And the reality is, with this work, when you start fighting, speaking out against justice and everything, you develop some thick skin. It takes time and you're going to get some scars and some wounds. It's challenging. And that's what I tell white folks. You've got to do what Jesus said. You've got to count the cost. You've got to cap it off, because guess what? There's going to be a cost. You might offend some more conservative people in your fan base. They're going to be like, "Man, I can't believe she's locking arms." I've seen this. "They're locking arms with the liberal Marxist movement. They're locking arms. I'm done! I'm going to a different church!"
I saw a predominant white church post a black spiritual square, and they were like, "I'm leaving the church. You guys are locking arms with Marxists." You know? And then you've got other folks out there on the other side of the spectrum, "Well, you need to say more."
Then you've got other folks out there on the other side of the spectrum, "Well, you need to say more. Come on. What are you doing?" It's just nasty out there. Some folks are just mean-spirited. I am sorry if that's happening to you. As a man of Color who is a scholar, a practitioner who has been in this fight, I am thankful. That's why we got to link up. That's why you got to link up with people, with your Black friends who are like, "I see you. I appreciate you."
Nancy: Absolutely.
Pastor Dorrell: You're finding courage. You find courage and encouragement and affirmation in that. That's what keeps you going.
Nancy: Refocusing. What's the mission here? What are we all after here? Absolutely. That's so encouraging to hear.
Pastor Dorrell: Yes.
Nancy: It is very like, do this, don't do that. Do this, don't do that. As soon as you do something, you feel like that's the wrong thing.
Pastor Dorrell: That's right.
Nancy: Then you do this and you have regret. If I'm honest, I have really wanted to process this whole thing offline. I've just wanted to go offline with it, and just work on it myself and with my family. If anyone listening, if that's what you're doing, keep doing that. That is great. I just felt like this week in particular, I didn't really have, I don't know. The luxury or the ability to do that because I wanted to be in it. I had to be in it. Anyway, it's just interesting when you do get in it, how messy it can become.
Pastor Dorrell: Right. Yes.
Nancy: I think the most encouraging thing that I've heard you say is just, if you are taking one step, that's all you can do, but don't not take that step. Take the step. Even if it's messy, just keep moving forward.
Pastor Dorrell: Yes. Exactly.
Nancy: Bounce forward. Let's keep going.
Pastor Dorrell: Exactly. Yes.
Nancy: Here's another situation. I've just got, maybe one or two more and then we can close it out. I have been a business owner for, this is my 13th year owning a business. Last year, after 12 years, I closed my photography business. I had a team. I had a team of white women. Precious girls. Love the Lord. We would have, and I should say almost all of the clients we served were white. We'd photograph weddings, families. Very much so, white team, photographing white clients.
This is me being like very real and honest, Dorrell. We would have conversations as a team saying, "We really, really want more people of Color, of all different ethnicities and skin color to be in our clientele. How can we make that happen?" Any time we would get a lead that would come in, and we would maybe, poke around on Facebook or do some research. We would find out that they are African-American or of another ethnicity, we would go after that lead. We wanted them so bad. I mean, I wanted a more colorful business. I did. That was my heart.
We didn't do it. We didn't actually attain that, in the 12 years of business. We certainly photographed a handful of weddings, and we certainly photographed a handful of families that were Black families, Black couples. I still struggle with that because I don't know what I could have done, necessarily. I think that's my ignorance showing right now, possibly. My heart was in one place and the business looked a different way. I know a lot of people listening here are probably feeling the same way as that.
Like, "How can I effect that change in my business?" Honestly Dorrell, I would feel bad finding a Black family or a Black couple and saying, "Hey, can we shoot your wedding for a discount?" Or, "Can we do this because we want people that look like you?" That feels offensive to me. I don't know if that would be, but it felt like the wrong thing to do because I'm still trying to treat everyone equally. I don't know. This is me just being very real and honest with you saying, how can small business owners, women and men who have small businesses, maybe creative businesses that right now feel like they're very white. What can we do to change that?
Pastor Dorrell: Absolutely. A couple things. First is, I think mentorship from a person of Color. Consistent mentorship, and someone speaking into the life of your business or decision making in the organization is critical. Who can give you a different- See, this is the thing. You said that you and your team were together. You guys were trying to figure this out.
Nancy: We're all white. Yeah.
Pastor Dorrell: The reality is, you guys were all white. What happened is that, even though your intentions are in the right place, there's a bit of an echo chamber there. Where your perspectives, not that you guys are all the same. However, there are a lot of commonalities there that I think, maybe prevent you from getting different perspectives and strategies than if someone who came in to mentor you guys in that process, would.
If someone came in. Someone you trust. Someone that has experience in your field, in what product you're selling, I think if you allowed them to come in and speaking to the life of your decision making and your strategies, I think that would be very helpful. To give them that place and that voice to be mentored in the process of becoming, not only more diverse, but inclusive. Not only having more Black and Brown faces, but centering Black and Brown voices, beauty, art, and culture.
I think mentorship is very critical. Who can I bring in to do some consulting? Where, we're actually someone- That they are a bit of an expert. They have a proven track record of success, and frankly, they're knowledgeable in what you're trying to do. And understand that. Understand your heart. Understand that language and can help you. Mentorship is key. Number two, I would look at my book, page 100. I have a seven step process that helps churches become ready for racialized crises, through being more inclusive and coming up with a plan.
The first step, and I'm going to fly through this. You can read this in the book, but the first step is organizing. Gathering together a core team of stakeholders, similar to what you did. We got to have some type of organization with what we want to do. Number two, we need to start to connect. We need to, and remember those three Cs. Cooperation, collaboration, coordination. How can we connect with other community stakeholders? Maybe it's a minority owned photography business and we want to do a collaboration with a photo project.
When people of Color see that and see that intentionality, Nancy, they're like, "Okay. They see us. This is cool. I want to do business with them. I'm going to-" you know? Connecting is important. Number three, assess. We've got to be willing to assess and take into account the opinions, perceptions, and ideas people have about our business and about- We just need feedback, and assess our strategies. The fourth is envision. That's where we have to start off with a vision. We got to be like, "Okay, what do we want to do here? What do we want to be?"
Once we have that, we start to prioritize. Like, "Here are some key metrics that we want to do. You got to have some set goals here." Listen. It's going to take time. It may not be a three months, you get it, or six months you get it. What are you doing? I love having a vision board, because it gives me a visual of what I prioritize. What I want to prioritize in my life. Some type of prioritization is key. Then once you have, you're prioritizing steps that you want to take, clear metrics and goals, then you start to implement.
You start to work towards it. The seven part of that is monitor and evaluate. That's where we follow through on those measures that we've taken. That's where we say, "Okay. Let's find a way." Maybe it's our board. Maybe it's that mentor that I talked about earlier, but find a way for someone to monitor and evaluate our progress. We're laying out a goal, we're implementing these measures and then we're putting in place accountability and measures to check our progress over time.
If we don't do that, guess what? Six months later, a year later, "Well, we didn't really make any headway." Then we get discouraged, "Oh my gosh. It's just not going to work." What if we put together key things, systems and structures in place to monitor our process of implementation towards these goals? To becoming more diverse and more inclusive? I just think, that seven step process on page 100, I think really lays out a good strategy to go beyond just diversity to true inclusion in your organization.
Nancy: So good. That's worth buying your book, right there. I mean, the whole book sounds awesome, but that is so helpful. I predominantly have women who listen to this. White women, I'm sure. I think, just hearing those things is, it's so practical and helpful. In my business I've for years followed the traction framework, which is based on a book by Gino Wickman called Traction. It's basically how you lay out goals for, it's a five or ten-year plan.
Then a three-year picture, one-year goal. Then you break it down every quarter. That is where my business brain is going with all of this. Putting these steps, integrating what you want to accomplish in your business and in your work as part of those monthly goals that you're setting. The quarterly goals that you're setting. The yearly, three-year.
Pastor Dorrell: Absolutely.
Nancy: Even if it's a long-term thing. I love that. I love everything that you said. If I could turn back time and go do it again, I totally would.
Pastor Dorrell: Sure. Sure.
Nancy: Just getting a mentor, it's beautiful. It's so simple. Why didn't I think of that? That makes so much sense. Thank you so much for speaking to that.
Pastor Dorrell: Good. Glad I could be helpful. Wonderful.
Nancy: For sure. Well, listen. We could talk all day. I think we could go on and on about this, Pastor Dorrell. I'm so thankful for your time. I know this is probably my longest episode to date, which is I'm happy with it. I'm so fine with that because I think every word needed to be said. I want to close with a few words of encouragement. Then if you have anything else that you would like to say, I would love to hear it.
I think, for people listening, this is, it can feel hard. It can feel uncomfortable. I just want to encourage anybody listening. What we're talking about is not as much a political thing. Absolutely, political voices are here. There is definitely a political game at play here. I'm not discounting that. The thing that we're trying to talk about is, it doesn't have to do with politics. It has everything to do with the body of Christ.
It has everything to do with our hearts, and it has everything to do with fighting something that's evil. An attack of the enemy, that the enemy has used to divide the church for so long. I just want to say, I'm so grateful for you, Pastor Dorrell. I'm so thankful for your voice. I'm humbled and honored that you would come here and share this with me. That you would open up and share a story from your childhood that's so moving and difficult. I'm so humbled by that. I'm so grateful. I just want you to know, I'm standing with you and I love you. I love your family.
Pastor Dorrell: Thank you, Nancy.
Nancy: I love your church and I love the Black community. We want to be in unity. We want to lift you up without discounting the things that you have gone through. I am on my own path. I know I have a long way to go.
Pastor Dorrell: Sure.
Nancy: A lot of that has probably been obvious throughout this podcast to people who are listening that might be further along in this journey. I'm so thankful. I think my encouragement to anyone listening is just, start where you are and start with your heart.
Pastor Dorrell: That's right.
Nancy: That's it. Just get before the Lord. Throughout the last couple weeks on Instagram, a few of my Black and Brown brothers and sisters who have responded to things that I've said, the most encouraging and tender things that I have heard have been, "God is going to lead you in this, Nancy."
Pastor Dorrell: Amen.
Nancy: "Thank you. God is leading you. Trust Him. Let Him lead the way."
Pastor Dorrell: Amen. Amen. Yes. Yes.
Nancy: That has been the most comforting- I mean, I have-
Pastor Dorrell: So good.
Nancy: My heart's been so pricked when they have said that, because I'm like, "Thank you for trusting the God in me." Not me. Thank you for trusting God in me to do this work in me. That is the best place to start.
Pastor Dorrell: Amen.
Nancy: Let's all bounce forward from this.
Pastor Dorrell: Amen.
Nancy: The season that we are in.
Pastor Dorrell: Right on. Right on.
Nancy: Pastor Dorrell, what have you got to say to close this episode?
Pastor Dorrell: I'll end with one of my favorite scriptures. I named my church Six:Eight. The Six:Eight Church, but Four:Eighteen Church would be really cool. Luke, 4:18 because I love the scripture in Jesus is, he stands up in the synagogue to read the scriptures. Particularly, the scroll of Isaiah. He unrolls the scroll and he says this. "The spirit of the Lord is upon me, for he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim that captives will be released. That the blind will see. That the oppressed will be set free, and that the time of the Lord's favor has come."
In Verse 20, he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant and sat down. All eyes in the synagogue looked at him intently, and he began to speak to them. "The scripture you just heard has been fulfilled this very day." This is exactly what Jesus went out and did. He went out and liberated those who were oppressed physically, socially and spiritually. He cast out demons. He gave value to women. He said, "Bring the children to me."
He identified with the poor and the hungry, and he invited them to participate in the Kingdom of Justice and Peace in which the most vulnerable were no longer neglected. Just beautiful, beautiful story. He joined in their lives and experience and their struggles. When I think about George Floyd and Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery, Jesus knew what it was like to have a cousin executed by the powers that be. He knew it.
They said, they came and they told him, "John's dead." He had to go away. He had to grieve because of powers that brought death to someone that he loved. What we're dealing with right now in our news, Jesus can relate to that. I want to say again to your listeners, thank you for being open. For your heart to be opened. We are grateful for you. We are thankful that you are learning, you're listening, that you see us. I truly believe by the grace of God, by the spirit of the Lord, we will bounce forward. We will have a brighter day. We will build a better future for our children and our grandchildren.
Nancy: Amen. Thank you so much for being here, Pastor Dorrell. We are so grateful for you.
Pastor Dorrell: Right on. Thank you for having me.
I feel like I'm going to be carrying that conversation with me, as I bounce forward. I really hope that you will too. I'm so thankful that we had the opportunity to listen and learn from Pastor Dorrell today, and just show up in a place that was safe. Even after we both ended the recording, we both just said, "Thank you for making this a safe place. Thank you." I thanked him for making it a safe place for me to ask him questions. He said, "Likewise." I thought it was such a beautiful and really important conversation to have.
Now it's time to transition into the Work and Play Cornerstore, which is where I draw from my personal life and experiences to bring you a book I'm loving and a thing I'm loving. I'll get a small commission from anything bought through these links, which will help me continue to bring this podcast to you every week. Today, of course, I'm going to be adding Pastor Dorrell's book, There's a Storm Comin': How the American Church Can Lead Through Times of Racial Crisis.
As well as our beloved Baby Ava, to the Cornerstore. You've heard all about the book today. Like I said earlier, page 100 alone is worth buying the book for, but I'd love to explain Baby Ava a little bit more. Baby Ava is a beloved baby doll in our home. I bought her for Milly three Christmases ago and over time Lyndon, my second daughter has really grown attached to her. Baby Ava has Brown skin. She doesn't look like the rest of our baby dolls, but she is hands down, Lyndon's favorite baby doll.
She is a very important baby doll in our home because Lyndon has to sleep with her every night. The conversations we're having right now about race, about things that we can do to be anti-racist, and really have families that have conversations about this, that talk about this, that are reflective of our own beliefs about it. It's representative in a lot of the little things that we do, like buying Brown and Black baby dolls, or including more books with African-American children in them.
This is just a small thing that we have done. Very small thing that we have done to help our kids. It's a small thing that you could do for your kids, as well, which is why I wanted to include it in the links today.
I'm going to close with words from Pastor Dorrell's book:
"The church is unlike any institution in America. The church has been interested with the task of communicating this glorious news of Jesus Christ's mission to redeem all of creation. This book is aimed primarily at the church because I believe in the church as a conduit for God's mercy, love, compassion and justice to flow to a broken and dark world."
