068 - 12 Years of Marriage, Part 1
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Show Notes:
Today, I have my favorite human as my guest, my husband Will Ray. We are doing a question-and-answer series all about marriage and we cover a huge range of topics. We talked about how we knew we were the right ones for each other and when we met and how we fight and parenting and intimacy and communication and faith and money, our roles and responsibilities, date nights, all the things literally. I feel like we talked about everything.
And because of that, you don't just get to hear from us this week, you're also going to hear from us again next week. We've actually split it up into a part one and part two, both episodes all about our marriage. Now, I don't say it lightly when I say I have so much respect and admiration for this man. We are not perfect. I hope that comes through loud and clear in these episodes, but good gracious God was so generous and good to me when He gave me Will Ray.
I am so honored to share his voice and his heart with you today as we share a little bit about our marriage and the journey we've had together over the last 12 years.
For the full episode, hit play above or read through it below!
Nancy Ray: Well, today on the Work and Play Podcast, I'm really excited to have none other than my husband, Will Ray, joining me. Will, thank you so much for being here.
Will Ray: Thank you.
Nancy: We have been joking a lot behind the scenes of how silly we would want to be. So, we're going to try to keep it pretty tame but no promises.
Will: Keep it tight.
Nancy: Yeah, how you feeling?
Will: Good. Thank you for having me. I thought I would eventually get an invitation to be on the podcast.
Nancy: Really?
Will: Yeah. I thought eventually about something, maybe but marriage was not the thing that I was expecting to talk about. There are many more things that I am much more comfortable talking about and I feel like I would have something to say about lots of other topics other than this.
Nancy: Not feeling like an expert on marriage?
Will: Definitely not.
Nancy: That's actually a really good way to start, I think, this episode because we are not experts on marriage.
Will: We are not.
Nancy: But-
Will: Yeah, go ahead.
Nancy: Well, at the time of the release of this podcast episode, yesterday would have been our 12th yesterday. So, happy anniversary, babe.
Will: Happy anniversary to you. I mean, 12 years is not nothing. So there's that.
Nancy: Yeah, I know it's crazy.
Will: I'm relatively happy.
Nancy: Well, that's good. That's good.
Will: Are you relatively happy?
Nancy: I am. I would say more than relatively happy. I'm very happy, but glad to know though at least we’re both somewhat happy. That's good. That's good. All right, so what I did just so anybody listening can kind of be filled in, I went to Instagram a few weeks ago and realized, okay, I have this podcast episode coming out the day after our anniversary so I'm just going to ask people in Instagram if there's any questions they would have for me and Will, if I could convince him to come onto the show.
And thankfully, he was convinced and here we are and I have a long list of questions. We actually went through every single one. We're kind of amazed that all the questions that came in. We consolidated them. We're going to try to hit most of them. There are some that we couldn't squeeze in and we're going to try to be concise. And hopefully, I don't know, hopefully encourage you, give you some hope, also probably entertain you a little bit along the way. So, let's just jump in.
The first question that we got and I'll kind of be, I mean, it's awkward to have like ... It's like an interview but I am the interviewer but I'm also answering so, how it's going to go is I'm going to ask question and then I'll throw it to you, Will, and then I can chime into and we'll go with it.
Will: Great.
Nancy: So what was your first thought or impression when you met?
Will: So, I don't remember the exact time we met. Do you? We met a long time ago. I was in eighth grade.
Nancy: I was in seventh.
Will: I don't remember the first time we actually met. The earliest memory I have of you though was in chapel. We went to a Christian school on Thursdays or whatever day it was of the week, we had chapel. And the first I remember seeing you there, I think that year either eighth grade or ninth grade. And you just come back from a family trip to Hawaii or something. You were super tan and you had this haircut that was amazing then, and it could have been probably we would consider it closer to hideous now, no offense. It was super cute then.
But I remember like wow, Nancy, wow.
Nancy: Just to paint the picture, this haircut was like this pixie haircut, really short like really, really short. Not quite boy haircut but like ... And I put this pomade stuff in my hair and it was sticking out everywhere and then I had butterfly clips on either side and braces. I was very special. Yeah, my first memory of you, I don't-
Will: It still took me a few years beyond that to actually get my head-
Nancy: Understandably. I remember you waiting underneath the carpool pickup line, the little shelter. You were in eighth grade and you were the new guy. And somebody was like, "Have you met that new guy named Will?" And I was like, "No." And they're like, "He's right over there."
Will: He's so hot.
Nancy: He's really cute, I did. And then I did have a crush on you for two weeks in seventh grade and you were too full of yourself and I was like, "Yeah, not interested."
Will: Definitely did not have my head screwed on right.
Nancy: No, not back then but good thing-
Will: Still working.
Nancy: Eventually.
Will: I got a few things right along the way.
Nancy: Eventually, we'll get it screwed on right. It might take a few more years-
Will: I got a few things right.
Nancy: One of the questions that came in which I thought was good, a good question for sure but kind of hard to answer. How do you pick a great partner? How do you know if a good long term fit? How do you know when you meet the one? How did you know I was the one, babe?
Will: As I think about it, we have the luxury of knowing each other like a really long time.
Nancy: Yes, that's true.
Will: And being friends, just friends. We dated other people, as much as you can date in high school or whatever. But we're good friends, we knew each other and we could just have fun and we got to know each other over time. And so when come senior year, when I was finally like trying to think right and think about my future and stuff like that, I had seen you and been friends with you for years and I knew what you're about and I knew that you love the Lord, and I knew that you're just so solid in your faith, your values and how you handled yourself.
I think of that now as a luxury because I think about folks who are older and they don't have maybe five years to get to know a person before they start dating. And so I thought we really were able to hang out a lot as friends and then it just kind of grew out of there. So, we're very lucky in that regard, I think.
Nancy: Yeah, how to pick a great partner? I mean, you got to pray a lot about it. And you got to trust ... For me, we were really young. And I think there are a lot of people saying, "You maybe shouldn't get married that young or like are you sure? How do you know?" I was 21.
Will: 21. 21, 22.
Nancy: Yeah, when we got married. So, I was 20. The sophomore in college we got engaged. And my answer would be just walking with the Holy Spirit really asking him to make it clear. I got to the point where I felt like it was wrong to not marry you, like I was so sure that that was the path that God had for us.
And there's been a few times in my life where it's like wrong to not do this thing. I'm on a track and the Lord's made it clear that he's blessing this, and I think that that would be my answer. It might not be that clear for everybody. But I mean, some of the obvious things you said, making sure your values are aligned, making sure your faith is the same. You're on the same page there.
Just talking about as much as you can under the sun before you get married-
Will: Yeah. I mean, we had plenty of time to talk about what we cared about or what's important to us, what we believed or we took our intention about that too and we took time to do that. And so we knew we're on the same page with our faith. We knew it was really serious for both of us. So that was really helpful.
And that's probably the most important thing is that values alignment at its core, there's certainly physical attraction and there has to be that. But when that wanes, if you have nothing else keeping you, it's going to be a struggle. So, yeah, I think how to pick a great partner is just understanding and working on values fit. That's probably the biggest thing I think.
Nancy: All right. Tips for waiting for marriage, whether you're single?
Will: What do you mean waiting? Define waiting. Like you're waiting to find the right person or-
Nancy: This is just the question that came in from Instagram. I don't know, I'm thinking maybe if you're waiting to find the right person, if you're single in a season of waiting. Maybe you're dating and you're in a serious relationship and it's not just time to get married yet. I don't know, just waiting.
I mean, for us, I can't really remember. I mean I do remember being single but I was like in early high school. We started dating when I was a senior in high school, and so most of my life I feel have been with you. So, our waiting for marriage was more dating each other and waiting and that.
Will: Yeah.
Nancy: So let's speak to that because I feel like that's more appropriate for our answer.
Will: Yeah, I don't know. Waiting is hard. It's refining. We had a longer engagement, 14 months or so. And so it's certainly refining.
Nancy: Yeah. Waiting is hard. It's not fun for anybody. I think whether you're single ... I do remember. I take that back. I do remember really longing for a boyfriend or a husband like a very young age. And I think building your relationship with the Lord to the point that my longing had to become overwhelmingly for the Lord first and knowing that he's the one that fulfills me before any guy ever could, any husband ever could.
That helps in your waiting. Obviously, that longing is still there but just making sure your heart is in the right place and that you ... And when you are lonely or are sad or are having a hard time waiting just constantly bringing that to the Lord's feet. But then waiting in the sense of like, let's just get real. We both waited.
Will: In the Christian sense.
Nancy: In the Christian sense. We both waited to have sex until we are married.
Will: Yeah.
Nancy: That wasn't easy.
Will: Yes.
Nancy: I mean-
Will: So difficult.
Nancy: Probably easier for me than for you.
Will: Perhaps, yes.
Nancy: I would think so.
Will: Yeah.
Nancy: I don't know. Yeah, probably.
Will: Yeah. I mean, that's difficult. That is absolutely ... Yeah, if there's folks that are trying to do that and trying to save themselves, that's an awesome goal. Absolutely the right thing to do I think for yourself personally. Everybody is going to make their choices here. The Scripture is pretty clear that it's best reserved for a covenant relationship where you're in it for a long haul. This isn't, "Hey, will he be here tomorrow? I'm giving my life to you."
And so that's the best place to do it. So, tips for that, if that's what this question was as it relate to waiting or maybe not. Maybe they're getting more than they bargain for here. Just setting clear boundaries, asking for help and accountability from close friends, family and being clear with each other what you are going to do, what you're not going to do, and even getting practical like, "Hey, we really probably shouldn't be in a home alone together," things like that. That was really helpful for us.
Nancy: Yeah. On the real real, I'm really glad we had a long distance engagement.
Will: That was helpful.
Nancy: Because you were living in Raleigh most of the time and I was living in Boone in school most of the time. So, that was helpful but yeah, I totally agree. Having boundaries, talking about those boundaries and then when you are tempted to push those boundaries which you will be talking about that, bringing it up, it's hard.
Will: Yeah, you're not going to be successful if you're trying to wait until marriage and abstain until then. You're not going to be successful trying to talk about boundaries while you're alone and things are getting intense, and you're really excited to see each other and you're by yourselves. That's not the time to talk about it when you're out to dinner. It's before you get there what you need to talk about what you're going to do and not going to do.
Nancy: Yeah. Well, let's move on to marriage. That was all like leading up to actually being married. But it was good. It kind of took me back down little memory lane. What was the hardest part of the first year?
Will: I think it was just probably getting used to living together. Obviously, we didn't do that until we're married and making sure we understood expectations and learning what you cared about and what was the way you did things and kind of meshing that. Yeah, I looked back and it was not that difficult.
The hardest part of our first year in particular was, I think I was working third shift then. I was working night shift and so that was a challenging part of first year.
Nancy: Oh, yeah. On the practical side, you leaving at nine o'clock at night, me telling you goodbye and then you going to work and we lived in a tiny little apartment on the side of a mountain. We have no AC. We had mice, and I remember thinking I was hearing the mice and I was by myself in the apartment and it was just humble beginnings for sure.
I think apart from that, the hardest part of first year is having any kind of expectations, because I expected the first year to be really hard. I expected to be gut-wrenchingly hard because my sister had a really tough first year of marriage. Some of my friends had and I was like rolling up my sleeves preparing for the worst. And yeah, it sounds bad, but I think you just start to hear stories of friends and then you start to have these set of expectations.
And I do remember I felt really bewildered and confused when I graduated college because that was the middle of our first year of marriage and I didn't know what I was going to do. For the first time, I was so confused and really kind of lost. And that was hard but I think overall, our first year of marriage was pretty good.
Will: Yeah.
Nancy: It wasn't bad. It wasn't necessarily like wonderful but it was pretty easy. I think we had done a lot of work beforehand and I wished that I hadn't expected it to be so hard. I think I would have been able to let go and enjoy it a little bit more because I was kind of always waiting for the ball to drop, I feel like. Just lose expectations, let it be what it is for you.
So, I just answered the next question. One piece of advice you'd tell your newlywed selves, lose expectations. What do you got?
Will: Yeah, I think that's huge. Hold your expectations loosely, what you're expecting marriage to be just take it easy. Hold those loosely because that may or may not happen the way that you would plan for it to go.
Nancy: All right. Next question is how do you communicate expectations when you're going to an event like a holiday gathering?
Will: Talk on the way there, secret signals.
Nancy: Secret signals for what?
Will: Like when it's time to go.
Nancy: Uh-huh, yeah. What do we talk about on the way there?
Will: Like when we're going to leave, who we need to if there's somebody we need to talk to or something we need to make sure that we do if somebody's got ... If the kids are there, there's a whole other dynamic. And so, talking about things, if we need to leave by whenever.
Nancy: Yeah, we always decide on what's the departure time? How can we both keep an eye on that? Leave on time? Yeah, we always come up with a secret signal. Usually, you kind of come up to my back and give me a pretty firm back rub like signaling me, "Hey, it's time to go." And at that point, I usually smile and nod and disregard and we're there for another time.
Will: True story.
Nancy: If we're being real. But no, we do try. I think it's good to communicate about these things ahead of time for sure. Do you recommend counseling? Individual counseling, marital counseling, premarital counseling, any of that?
Will: All of the above.
Nancy: Yeah.
Will: It's really, really good. I think for married couples, there's a stigma around marital counseling like, oh, we're admitting we have a problem if we go to marital counseling. And that doesn't have to be case. It's really, really good. It's really healthy to talk through things. Individual counseling if there's an intensive issue that one of you needs to deal with either as it relates to your past or your experience or challenge you can't get through.
And then marital counseling is like, we try to do it like a tuneup.
Nancy: Yeah, completely agree. I think there is the stigma. I used to think, "Oh, we don't need counseling. We're good. We don't need to do that."
Will: "There aren't any problems. We're good."
Nancy: "We're fine, why would we need that?" But what I've realized and we each come from families from parents who have had divorces. And I remember thinking when my parents got divorced like if we could just go to counseling once a year or once a quarter or whatever, once a week, whatever it takes, right? If that would help us stay together, why would we not do that? And I think that's what we found counseling to be is just a way for us to check in, stay together, kind of do tune up.
And then we have gone for different issues that we feel like the two of us cannot solve this thing together.
Will: Yeah, it can be very helpful to have a kind of an unbiased third party to help you talk through particularly sensitive issues.
Nancy: Yes.
Will: Really, helpful.
Nancy: Yeah, and that's been the case for us for sure. So, highly recommend. We did premarital. We've done individual counseling. We've done marriage counseling, all of the above for sure.
All right, this question makes me laugh. You two seemed perfect. What do you fight about? What do you argue about?
Will: Definitely not perfect.
Nancy: Definitely not perfect.
Will: I'm really grateful. I don't think we fight really. We don't have many ...
Nancy: There's no frying pans, things thrown to the kitchen or-
Will: No yelling really. I don't think so, no yelling.
Nancy: Yeah, we've gotten close.
Will: Yell more at the kids then, fair enough. It's embarrassing. Yeah, what do we fight about? What do we have conflict about? The kids and how to handle them.
Nancy: Yeah, kids know how to push your buttons. So, they reveal a really bad side of both of us.
Will: How to deal with that, dinner time, just punishments, disciplines, all those sorts of things.
Nancy: Yeah, the screamfest that is dinner time that we can easily lose our mind by the end of dinner. We're like, "Oh, we fix this big meal. We're sitting down to enjoy it," and then all three kids are screaming or crying or something and by the end, we're like, "Okay, whatever. Let's just go." We're just on edge.
Will: I think she should eat her broccoli. You don't think she has to eat all her broccoli, all that stuff. Form versus function? Like if we are buying something new for the house, I want the one that's most functional and you want the trendiest, best looking item.
Nancy: I remember when we were registering for our wedding, we got into a fight in Target for this very reason about a trashcan.
Will: And an oven mitt.
Nancy: And an oven mitt.
Will: Are these two different trips?
Nancy: Two different tips to Target, two different things. And I really wanted this cute blue trashcan and you were like, "It's a trashcan. Why would we get something cute. Literally, you're putting your trash in it. It's not functional at all. This other one has a cool stuffy thing that blue one is way too expensive. We had it out in Target about that and the oven mitt as well.
Will: We just shut it down.
Nancy: We did. We're like we have to leave.
Will: Scanner gun—gave it back to him.
Nancy: Because I wanted the cute oven mitt and you were like this is not practical. Look at this other one that was hideous. But you were like, it completely protects your hand and it's rubber. And I was like, "I will be doing all the cooking. I don't want a rubber oven mitt." I want a pretty clock one that has a ... I don't know, we went on and on.
Will: One thing that we've talked about a lot, rather you've talked about a lot is like money and our financial journey. And we've been very on the same page for a lot of that but we've also fought sometimes or had conflict about how much we should spend and that sort of thing.
Nancy: Yeah. I think of several examples of that where remember, I wanted to buy a really pretty bedspread for the kids' beds and it was like $400. And I was like, "This is so beautiful. This is like my little girl dreams. I want this." And that lost your mind. You were like, "$400 freaking dollars for a kid's ... They're going to throw up on that. They're going to pee on that. What are you thinking?" And I was so offended, basically I cried. I was so upset about it. We ended up going with a $50, $100 white bedspread.
Will: I don't think it was $100.
Nancy: No, it was like $50, I think. It may be not even that. Best decision I have to say.
Will: It's super cute.
Nancy: It's super cute, works well and I can throw it in the wash and I'm not worried about the cost of it at all. But that is like the quintessential Will and Nancy fight, I feel like.
Will: As far as it goes back to what we were saying earlier, but unmet expectations. I wanted something to go some way or you did and it didn't.
Nancy: Yeah, for sure. So, I hope that resolves any myth that you might be thinking that Will and Nancy never fight.
Will: Oh, and I'm not very kind in a way I say things sometimes so that creates conflict.
Nancy: That's true. Because it's not always that you say something that's bad, you just say it in a way that makes me like want to cry. But I'm like, what you just said wasn't bad. It's just you're very ... You're thinking very black and white. That is who you are.
Will: What was said was not not true, but it was not right to say.
Nancy: Yeah, so how do we fight? How do we sort through conflicts? Now that you have a long list of all the things we fight about, I mean there's more than that too but that's just a start.
Will: Generally, you will catch me later and say, "Hey, I want to talk to you about something," and I'll be like, "Oh, no. Oh, no." And I'll go back through the day of all the things that maybe could have been possible conflict points and then we'll talk it out and I'll end up apologizing.
Nancy: And I usually end up apologizing too. I'm just a little sensitive person, so you've just married a sensitive one and I've married someone who sees things really black and white, so that's just a fun combination.
Will: Yeah, you just have to work it out and with enough humility, I think we generally get to a pretty good resolution.
Nancy: Yeah.
Will: Even if I don't always understand the first time. Sometimes you have to explain it to me a couple of times about why you didn't like what I said or whatever it was.
Nancy: Yeah, we've circled back to a couple of arguments a few times until we really come to a good understanding. But I think that's worth saying it's not like we fight and then we make up and then we're good every time. It's like a continual thing that we work for and we work towards. I don't stop fighting. I don't feel like you either until we get the piece that we're looking for.
Will: Yeah, I was going to say like we don't just drop it, drop it, drop it. Just stop, don't talk. We actually lean in and dig into it a little bit more because I could stand here today and say, legitimately, I don't have any qualm or beef or issue that is built up from past discussions. There's no issues with that, completely clear on us and how we're doing because we've cleared the deck. And we tend to clear the deck every time pretty well because we stay in it. We get to a point of understanding. Apologies are exchanged or one side gives an apology and we move on from there as best we can.
So, I don't have a long list of things that I'm still that are out there unresolved. We deal with them and generally put them to bed. Wouldn't you say?
Nancy: 100%. I feel the same. I feel completely clear standing here like there's nothing that I'm hanging on to in the back of my head. There's no ill-feeling towards you.
Will: Right. But you got to-
Nancy: Good feelings towards you instead.
Will: Relatively good feelings. And you don't get there by just getting halfway through an argument and then saying, "Fine, just drop it, just drop it." You have to keep, you have to stay in it and stay in the fight a little bit. I don't know that you should stay in the fight at 11:30 at night or 12:00 p.m., super late at night or if you've had a few drinks or whatever. It's probably not great to stay in the fight then, but you can't not come back to it and get resolution. We don't always get resolution that night necessarily, but we talk about it the next day.
Nancy: Yeah, it's like we do the best we can. And if we are at a point where we're like we can't get any further, we're tired. This isn't right or good to keep pushing this right now, we'll just go to sleep. And sometimes that's really hard for me honestly, but I think the fact that we still just try to address it or say something helps and then knowing that we can come back to it because there's that Bible verse that's like don't let the sun go down on your anger. And it's like, well, sometimes issues take a little bit longer. But it's okay as long as you're working towards that in resolving that anger, that's okay.
Will: We have not taken that as the literal sun.
Nancy: No.
Will: The sun does go down. Sometimes a day does pass and things aren't resolved. But I think that that really speaks to the idea like, "Hey, don't just leave things undealt with."
Nancy: And when we have bumped up against an issue that we feel like we haven't gotten an answer for, we would just schedule a counseling appointment for that week and say we've tried. We've done this three times over and we can't get there. So, we can't get that peace and that resolve, so we need some help. And even just having that counseling appointment on the calendar is like hopeful and helpful.
Will: Like we did when that ... I don't even remember what it was, but I said something and just like totally ruined a date night, totally just dropped a bomb on our date. We're having a great time and then we came across something that we just could not handle ourselves. And we talked about it for a couple of days and we're like, I think we need to go to counseling.
Nancy: Yeah, and we did. I don't even remember what that was about, it's hilarious.
Will: That's funny that we can't remember.
Nancy: I know it was a really big deal. Yeah, so that's it. Do we argue in front of the kids? How do we handle arguments with the kids?
Will: We have discussions in front of the kids.
Nancy: We do.
Will: But we don't have heavy conflict in front of the kids. So that means I have to go with something that I maybe don't agree with right now, or you do that you have to go with something that you don't agree with for right now. And then we get together and talk about it later so that we handle the next situation better and be on the same page about it.
Nancy: If it's going to push my buttons emotionally and I feel like I'm going to maybe lose my temper at the kids if they try to interrupt or something, then I think it's good to like table it and we don't talk about it. But I also think it's really important to have the kids watch you handle healthy conflict in the marriage because I think it's really important for them to see what a real marriage looks like. Otherwise, one day when they're married, they're going to be thinking, "My parents never had a conflict." But we did but with all behind closed doors. Well, that's not helping anybody.
Will: We're yelling and screaming at each other behind closed doors.
Nancy: That's not helping anybody. So I think-
Will: Yeah, because more is caught than taught. And so you do want to model healthy conflict and conflict resolution. And so there are opportunities to do that for sure. If it's getting too heated or you're too far apart on something, it's best to table it and do it later. But if you can have a discussion, and really I don't know if I've ever done this, I don't know if it would even have been caught because our kids, they're so young they don't catch a lot of what we say.
I mean they do catch quite a bit but if I have the opportunity to apologize to you in front of them or vice versa, that's a really powerful thing because we want them to apologize for doing what they have done to their sister or brother and want them to learn humility and forgiveness, that sort of thing.
Nancy: And ultimately just point to the Lord being the one who is perfect. Mommy and daddy aren't perfect. We say this all the time in our family. We all make mistakes. We all make mistakes.
Will: Model transparency, vulnerability, humility so that they know it's okay to say you're sorry as well. And that's how you can, that's the path to reconciliation in your relationships.
Nancy: That's good. Okay, greatest thing each of you did for the other. What's the greatest thing you've ever done for me, babe?
Will: I was going to say the greatest thing you ever did for me was pretty simple. I mean, it wasn't simple but it was easy to come up with this answer, was to have our babies.
Nancy: Don't you ever say that as simple again.
Will: It's not simple, not easy. It was easy to come up with.
Nancy: I'm just kidding. You're part in it was pretty simple but-
Will: Indeed.
Nancy: I'm just kidding. Yeah, I would say that's pretty much the greatest thing I ever did for you.
Will: Yeah. I mean you grew them. You birthed them, brought them into this world. You fed them with your body. I mean, it's a freaking superpower and it's amazing.
Nancy: Oh, man, I'll just sit with that for a minute. I'm just kidding. Yeah, I mean you've done some pretty amazing things for me though. You're a great husband. But I do think ... Well, I mean-
Will: It's hard to measure up to that.
Nancy: It really is. I mean I got to say that the scales are tipping here a little bit. But I think back to just the early years of our marriage and how you busted it working night shift. I mean, we were one income family. We lived on your income and you took a crazy overnight shift job at Walgreens so that I could build my dream, build my business. And I did and I grew Nancy Ray Photography. And if you had never allowed me to do that, that just wouldn't have happened. And so I'm doing work that I love. I have a life that I love, a job that I love. And financially, I feel like we are good because of the sacrifice that you made earlier on, for sure.
And then speaking to the babies thing, I mean I clearly couldn't have done it without you literally. But actually mentally, emotionally, any mother listening knows that having someone there during pregnancy, during birth, during delivery in those early days and the early weeks, I mean your husband is everything. So, you didn't play a small role in any of that either. It was definitely teamwork. Even when you had the flu with baby number three, double strain flu, you're right by my side when I was giving birth.
Will: The surprise was pretty good on your 30th birthday, that was a good one.
Nancy: Oh, yeah. You got me so good. Huge birthday party surprise, fun. And then I flew down and surprised you when you got a big award.
Will: That was an unbelievable surprise.
Nancy: That was so fun.
Will: I got an award through work and Nancy showed up. And they let you present it.
Nancy: I know. And I only showed up but-
Will: It's amazing.
Nancy: ... they were like, "We have someone here ready to present this award." And I walked out of the back door, very pregnant with Lyndon and I gave a little speech about you. And you jumped up in this room full of men and go, "Oh, my goodness." I mean, you lost your mind and I gave this little speech and presented your award. And you're crying and laughing. That was really fun. That was super fun.
Totally different direction, how do you balance two families on each side? So, what that means is Will comes from family of divorced parents. I have divorced parents. So basically, if you've ever seen the movie Four Christmases, that's kind of-
Will: It's our life.
Nancy: ... our life around the holidays. But, yeah, how do we do that?
Will: We've done it the wrong way a few times, which was trying to do it like the movie and see everybody on Christmas Day.
Nancy: And every holiday trying to make everybody happy and doing it all on the actual holiday.
Will: There's just no way to do it.
Nancy: It was exhausting.
Will: So, we have to be clear and communicate upfront. Quite a bit of planning goes into some of our holidays and things like that. "Hey, we're going to be with this family this day, this family this day, this family this day." Here's our family just you and me and the kids, that's when we're going to do our thing. So, planning in advance, communicating, expect so that people don't have expectations that don't get met. And then just kind of in the day-to-day life, there's some natural boundaries with some of our family lives in town, some of our family lives out of town. And we try to get around to everybody and keep everybody involved.
Nancy: Yeah. I think we're really blessed to have such amazing parents because all of them are super flexible and none of them gave us a hard time. I thought about that so much during the holidays. It could be so stressful if they were really fighting over who gets Christmas morning spot or whoever gets whatever. And none of them do. They're all so gracious.
And so, I think we made it harder on ourselves in the beginning a little bit because we were trying to be everything for everyone. And once we talked about it and realized we are killing ourselves over here and this is miserable, like I literally left one Christmas. It was like I hated that Christmas. It's the worst thing ever, because I did it to myself. But just communicating clearly, thinking about what is the best way for us to go about this that keeps us sane.
And we just kind of ... We're talking specifically about Christmas but we do this with every birthday too. We do this with every Thanksgiving. We do this with most holidays just thinking in advance what's the best thing for our family and what's the best thing for them and trying to keep in mind who might be alone, inviting those people over, all of that. We just kind of ... Yeah, I think we've grown a lot in that area.
All right, so we've talked a little bit about our personalities are a little bit different. How do we work through the personality differences that we bring into our marriage?
Will: I think understanding the personality differences, what those are is key.
Nancy: Yeah. And we've read some books and taken some personality tests. And there are some tools that really helped us with that. The Enneagram has been really helpful. We both read The Road Back to You. Didn't you read that book?
Will: Yeah.
Nancy: And you identify as a ...
Will: One.
Nancy: And I identify as a three. So, I think once we read that, we were like, "Oh, that's the way that we ... That's why we are the way that we are like as a couple." It really was helpful. Our love languages, it's another thing. We read The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman.
Will: While we were engaged. And yours was?
Nancy: Quality time and ...
Will: We've come to discover ...
Nancy: Yeah, more recently that words of affirmation is a close second for me. And yours?
Will: I thought that my most important was physical touch just like every young Christian abstinent male thinks that. And it's definitely a big one but it's probably second to acts of service.
Nancy: Yeah. I do think that we both thought a certain way when we were engaged. And then once we got married and we're like living together, we're like, actually it means really a lot to me when you do this. And acts of service is really big for you. Yeah, so I think using these tools is really helpful. I mean we've taken the DISC personality test.
Will: And just being aware of how your spouse processes the world, what they value and what they think about, that makes all the difference.
Nancy: Yeah. And one other thing to say that is never using the personality traits against them in a negative way. Never saying, "Oh, you're such a one or you're such a ..."
Will: Pejorative or to pigeonhole.
Nancy: I heard that recently somewhere and it has really set with me because I think that is really damaging. And only using those things like the Enneagram or your love language or whatever personality tests you fancy or your strengths finder, whatever, only using that as a lens to build your spouse up. And so a one, I always think of you as somebody who loves truth and love righteousness and fights for that.
And I think always keeping that in the forefront of your mind instead of what can easily come which is, "Oh, you're such a perfectionist," or like looking at it through a negative lens. No, always look at the positive, most positive attributes and only speak those things about your spouse.
Will: Yeah, that's huge. I think the "you" or the individual should be aware of their flaws, like I should be aware of my flaws and I should use the warnings about a one or a high Dc personality or whatever it is to myself. But it becomes kind of counterproductive if other people are pointing out, "Oh, well, you just care about that because you're a high D or you're a one," or whatever becomes counterproductive certainly would not be helpful.
Nancy: Yeah. Are you opposites attract or birds of a feather couple?
Will: Yeah, it's funny we were talking about it. And it's kind of both.
Nancy: Well, you said originally, you were like I definitely think we're opposite attract. And I was like I definitely think we're birds of a feather. So we had to hash it out.
Will: Yeah, that's good. So we thought of some things that are opposites, and so I'm sure you're big on?
Nancy: Form.
Will: And like we said, I'm big on function.
Nancy: 100%.
Will: You're more?
Nancy: I'm big picture.
Will: And I'm more detail-oriented.
Nancy: I'm very idealistic.
Will: And I'm the realist.
Nancy: I am very believing and believed the best in people.
Will: And I'm super skeptical.
Nancy: I'm really optimistic.
Will: She says, I'm pessimistic, but I just say a realist. I go back to realist.
Nancy: And I guess I kind of already said this but I think the best really about anybody but any situation, I'm like, "It's going to be great."
Will: And I think the worst, just about always. That's kind of pessimistic like trying to think about what would I do in worst case scenario situations.
Nancy: That's how we're opposite. But birds of a feather who flock together. We are similar in a lot of ways.
Will: We're both very driven.
Nancy: Yeah. We have really high expectations of ourselves and other people. Just our poor kids.
Will: Yeah. That's going to be tough on them.
Nancy: Yeah. We're sure to try to keep that in mind.
Will: And to that end, we really value personal responsibility. That's really one, we care a lot about that.
Nancy: We're kind of clean. I mean, we're ... kind of clean, that sounds bad. I mean we are clean. We just took showers, that's great. But we like the house to be tidy. We're not like one of us is a totally messy person or a total neat freak, but I feel like we see eye to eye in that. We both have the same expectations there. And like we've said earlier, we share the same values which is super important.
Will: We have the same ... And that really goes to in terms of how our money, how we view money, what we care about with that and some of our priorities there.
Nancy: And really like the same music, which is helpful. Not all of the same music.
Will: No, but a lot are the same.
Nancy: We do. Okay, let's get to the good stuff. Nothing so far has been the good stuff. No, I'm just kidding. But really, I was kind of laughing about all the questions that came in about intimacy and how do we keep cultivating intimacy with our busy schedules and with kids and all that. So, I just want to talk about that. First, let's talk about just how to cultivate intimacy as a married couple with busy lives.
Will: We've been working on this. Obviously, we've been in the thick of it with kids, five, two and one. And so we've been trying to figure this out for the last five years and we've certainly not arrived but we're learning. The thing that you helped me understand is that really, emotional intimacy leads to physical intimacy.
Nancy: Yeah. I think that's something that I really haven't even been able to put into words until recently. But as a woman, it's really important and necessary to feel a connection with you that isn't physical at all first. And that we see eye to eye. There's none of that baggage. If we're in an argument or anything like that, all has to be resolved. And just that we're both ... We don't just go from a busy day straight to having sex. There has to be like a buffer of conversation, and how are you, and like an understanding. And we just have to know like how the other person is really doing.
And that emotional intimacy ... I want to say clarity about just almost like in a way clarity like mental clarity, there's nothing kind of holding you back or bothering you. And we just have that understanding, has been really good to just understand and communicate, articulate that. But that's hard to do with busy schedules and it's hard to do with kids. And so, I think one thing I appreciate is just communicating expectations and talking about that ahead of time but also just talking about our days and connecting in little ways and big ways, for sure.
Will: You also have talked about sending signals of which I'm very bad at both sending and receiving signals in very like I said black and white. And so, it's also like you don't want to come home and say, "Hey, so you think we'll have sex later tonight?" So there's a little bit of an art to it where it's like you just kind of work on that emotional intimacy part and try to send signals like non-sexual signals to indicate that you want to have sex. I don't know how you do that.
Nancy: Like you said, it's an art form.
Will: It's an art form.
Nancy: I do think that I agree 100% with that. But also on busy weeks, we do talk about the nights that we could possibly have sex ahead of time because let's be real, if we don't talk about it, it's not going to happen on a super busy week. And so I think for me mentally knowing that that is coming is helpful.
Energy with three little kids, that's a big deal because I feel drained a lot of days and I'm like, "Nobody touch me because I've been touched all day. Please I need ... All I want is some space." And so I think knowing that you pretty much always have energy to do it and I'm always like, oh, I need ... Sometimes, I need to rally a little bit because I've just been touched and like I've held children all day. It's good to realize and then also ask myself like, what do I need right now? Do I need a minute? Do I need to just like take a bath?
Will: Take a bath, yeah.
Nancy: That sometimes I'm like I just need a minute just to like rest or like take a bath or do something for myself just to feel a little bit more like a reset. And then just planning getaways is something that we are trying to get better at doing, but that's really important.
Will: That and date nights. That goes towards the cultivating emotional intimacy as well. And then of course getaways, overnights or a weekend or whatever.
Nancy: Yeah. Date nights are huge. We're not super consistent about them but I think just trying ... We've gotten way more consistent about it recently. We used to not be as consistent as we are now. But just fighting for that time away when it feels impossible, it feels so hard sometimes. But it's not just sex. It's like all of it. It's all encompassing.
Will: This is going to be a great area where a counselor or help of various kinds can be really invaluable to get outside help if there's an issue.
Nancy: For sure.
Will: I do think we'd be remiss at this point if we didn't mention, if there's been issues with intimacy and your life and your marriage, there's help for that too. And one of the best things that you can do for your spouse is get healthy if you've not been healthy in that area. Maybe there's been sexual sin, sexual dysfunction, infidelity, pornography, any number of things that have been dealt with in marriage. I mean I know for most men, and many women, our age a little older and certainly younger. There's effectively no men that haven't struggled with, or dealt with pornography at some point. And that is a killer for intimacy, for emotional intimacy in marriage.
And so if that is an issue, I don't know how many men listen to this podcast, like three. But for those three men, if that's an issue or has been an issue or you feel like it could be an issue and you want to work on that, there's great opportunities. There's all sorts of resources out there that have not been available.
So the encouragement would be to get healthy in all aspects and that could be sexual addiction, it could be issues there, it could substance abuse, prescription drugs, drugs, alcohol, any number of things. Whatever it is that's holding you back from giving yourself fully to your spouse or causing an issue in your marriage. Dealing with that is going to be probably the best investment you can make in cultivating a great sex life with your spouse when you are truly fully healthy.
And so, that's just an encouragement. One of the resources that is out there is a ministry called Pure Desire Ministries. Another one is Faithful & True for marriage initiatives, or for marriage intensives rather. There's another one, Weekend to Remember by FamilyLife which is just a ... That's more of like a couples retreat to work on things and tune up. But one of the best things you can do is work on yourself and if there's issues as it relates to your sex life or sexual sins, sexual issues, then work on it.
It's one of the hardest things you can do that you do but it's absolutely one of the best things and one of the best gifts that you can give your spouse.
Nancy: Yeah, and that goes for the ladies too. Getting healthy is the best gift that you can give to your spouse, and there are plenty of resources for ladies and the ministries that Will listed as well.
The Work & Play Cornerstore
This week, Will and I are bringing you a book we've been loving and a thing we've been loving. I'll get a small commission from anything bought through these links which will help me continue to bring this podcast to you every week, plus those are just fun to think about with Will and come up with these things together.
Of course, we are going to bring you the book, Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman. This is the book we talked about in this episode. We actually both re-read a few chapters this year, like our 11th year in, I guess, as we're approaching our 12th anniversary just to kind of brush up on it. But it's the book that we read when we are engaged. I highly recommend it, very practical ways of loving each other.
And the thing that we are bringing to you is actually a project we have been working all day, I should say Will has been working on it all day. But they’re these amazing string lights that we just hung up all over our back patio. And it kind of dawned on us like we could make our backyard space, our back patio kind of magical with just some lights. And so he hung them up. They look gorgeous. They're these really heavy duty commercial grade lights that look so beautiful, and they have been a perfect addition to our back patio area. So just in case you want to make your backyard a little bit more magical, we highly recommend these. They're really durable, really sturdy and so gorgeous.
I'm going to close with words from Gary Chapman:
“Our most basic emotional need is not to fall in love but to be genuinely loved by another, to know a love that grows out of reason and choice, not instinct. I need to be loved by someone who chooses to love me, who sees in me something worth loving.
That kind of love requires effort and discipline. It is the choice to expend energy in an effort to benefit the other person, knowing that if his or her life is enriched by your effort, you too will find a sense of satisfaction, the satisfaction of having genuinely loved another. It does not require the euphoria of the "in love" experience. In fact, true love cannot begin until the "in love" experience has run its course.”
